Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#981 Postby wxman22 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:31 pm

rhoby13 wrote:How accurate are these GFS models 9-14 days out?

Hard to say it could be latching on to somthing (like it did with the event last week) or it could just be a "phantom" storm only way to know is to watch for trends in the next model runs.
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#982 Postby srainhoutx » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:46 pm

Here is the Parallel GFS @ 384 hours. Enjoy...and remember this is a second system behind the 216 hour event the GFS is painting...We shall see...

Image
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#983 Postby Ntxw » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:48 pm

That's far too out for me to buy into, but trend wise I'm liking our chances for a white Christmas :cold:
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#984 Postby rhoby13 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:54 pm

I agree, I'll get more excited if the models are holding this weekend into early next week :D
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#985 Postby wxgirl69 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:02 pm

rhoby13 wrote:I agree, I'll get more excited if the models are holding this weekend into early next week :D


Can't help but get a little excited.. But, I am with you I have seen models bust tooo many times.. I am no weather expert by any means.. I think this winter may be colder and wetter just from everything I have been reading..
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#986 Postby snow and ice » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:47 pm

rhoby13 wrote:How accurate are these GFS models 9-14 days out?


It's only to be used for general pattern recognition(run to run continuity) past 5-7 days. The Ensembles and EURO are better in the medium to long range as far as general pattern recognition is concerned, however. You'll save yourself a lot of disappointment if you'll take the specifics of GFS runs past 5 days with a grain salt. Calling Miss Cleo, throwing darts at a dart board, or using a Ouija board would be just about as accurate as relying on the specifics of a particular GFS run past day 5.
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#987 Postby srainhoutx » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:01 pm

snow and ice wrote:It's only to be used for general pattern recognition(run to run continuity) past 5-7 days. The Ensembles and EURO are better in the medium to long range as far as general pattern recognition is concerned, however. You'll save yourself a lot of disappointment if you'll take the specifics of GFS runs past 5 days with a grain salt. Calling Miss Cleo, throwing darts at a dart board, or using a Ouija board would be just about as accurate as relying on the specifics of a particular GFS run past day 5.



Agreed. The trends at least so far do raise an eyebrow.
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#988 Postby snow and ice » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:19 pm

srainhoutx wrote:
snow and ice wrote:It's only to be used for general pattern recognition(run to run continuity) past 5-7 days. The Ensembles and EURO are better in the medium to long range as far as general pattern recognition is concerned, however. You'll save yourself a lot of disappointment if you'll take the specifics of GFS runs past 5 days with a grain salt. Calling Miss Cleo, throwing darts at a dart board, or using a Ouija board would be just about as accurate as relying on the specifics of a particular GFS run past day 5.



Agreed. The trends at least so far do raise an eyebrow.


The trend is your friend, especially in the medium and long range Ensembles.
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#989 Postby srainhoutx » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:00 pm

Rather interesting Update from the HPC RE todays Final Extended Disco. There are a lot of "nuggets" to be digested...

EXTENDED FORECAST DISCUSSION
NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
230 PM EST WED DEC 09 2009

VALID 12Z SAT DEC 12 2009 - 12Z WED DEC 16 2009

AN ACTIVE SPLIT FLOW PATTERN WILL CONTINUE OVER THE WRN HEMISPHERE
OVER THE NEXT WEEK FEATURING A VERY STRONG NAO (COINCIDENT WITH A
LARGE AREA OF ABOVE NORMAL HEIGHTS AT HIGH LATITUDES)...A STRONG
SUBTROPICAL JET ACROSS THE PACIFIC INTO THE WRN CONUS...AND A
STRONG ATLANTIC SUBTROPICAL RIDGE ALONG 22N E OF FL.
IN THE LARGE
SCALE MODELS AND ENSEMBLE MEANS OFFER GENERAL AGREEMENT THAT THE
PATTERN SHOULD EVOLVE TOWARD AN ERN PAC TROF/WRN NOAM RIDGE/ERN
NOAM TROF CONFIGURATION BY THE MIDDLE OF NEXT WEEK.

TELECONNECTIONS ON THE HUGE POSITIVE HEIGHT ANOMALY CENTER FCST TO
DRIFT SW ACROSS GREENLAND FAVOR BELOW NORMAL HEIGHTS ACROSS MUCH
OF THE CONTINENTAL CONUS EWD INTO THE ATLANTIC OCEAN. IT APPEARS
THAT THRU EARLY DAY 5...THE RIDGE S OF FL WILL HAVE SOME
ASSISTANCE FROM AN UPSTREAM SRN STREAM TROF MOVING INTO THE SWRN
CONUS IN HOLDING OFF EXCEPTIONALLY COLD AIR FROM GETTING TOO FAR S
INTO THE NERN CONUS.
EVENTUALLY HOWEVER...THE SRN STREAM TROF
SHOULD FLATTEN THE FL/WRN ATLANTIC RIDGE.


THE NATIONS WEATHER WILL REPRESENT A BATTLE FOR CONTROL OF THESE 3
LARGE SCALE WEATHER PARAMETERS. SOME VERY COLD AIR IS CENTERED IN
CANADA VICINITY OF THE MONSTER VORTEX LOCATED THIS MORNING NEAR
70N/95W.
A CHUNK OF COLD AIR WILL BREAK OFF FROM THE MAIN ARCTIC
POOL OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS AND SPREAD ACROSS SERN CANADA ABOVE
THE LAKES REGION. HOWEVER THE CORE OF BITTER COLD AIR WILL SLOWLY
SINK SWD INTO SW CANADA AND WAIT FOR THE RIGHT SHORTWAVE TO DRAG
IT SWD INTO THE NRN PLAINS.


WHILE THIS ARCTIC AIR IS WAITING FOR THE RIGHT SHORTWAVE TO
DELIVER IT SWD INTO THE STATES...ANOTHER BATTLE FOR CONTROL IS
BEING WAGED BETWEEN THE STRONG SUBTROPICAL RIDGE S-SE OF FL AND
THE VERY STRONG EXPANSIVE POSITIVE HEIGHT ANOMALY TAKING SHAPE N
OF ICELAND.


12Z DETERMINISTIC MODELS SEEMS TO BE CONVERGING ON AN ARCTIC
SHORTWAVE SWINGING CYCLONICALLY ACROSS SWRN CANADA DAYS 4-5 WHOSE
CONTINUED EWD TREK WILL ALLOW SOME BITTER COLD AIR OVER WRN CANADA
TO COME S INTO THE LOWER 48 STATES. THERE IS SOME SPREAD ON THE
TIMING OF THE SRN STREAM SYS EMERGING OUT OF THE SWRN STATES AMONG
THE 12Z DETERMINISTIC MODELS...WITH THE GFS THE FASTEST AND THE
CANADIAN THE SLOWEST. THE NEW 12Z/09 GEFS ENSEMBLE MEAN COMPARES
RATHER WELL WITH THE 00Z/09 ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEAN THE NEW 12Z
DETERMINISTIC ECMWF WAS QUITE CONSISTENT WITH ITS OOZ COUNTERPART.
WE MADE FEW SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO FINALS FROM PRELIMS...MAINLY
ALONG THE E COAST TO GET CLOSER TO THE DAY 7 PATTERN SHOWN BY THE
NEW 12Z GEFS ENSEMBLE MEAN.


THE SRN STREAM SYS WILL BRING SOME MODERATE PCPN AMOUNTS TO THE
WRN CONUS WITH THE USUAL OROGRAPHIC ENHANCEMENTS EN ROUTE. A FLAT
WAVE MOVING ACROSS THE GULF COAST REGION WILL BRING YET ANOTHER
BOUT OF HEAVY RAINFALL TO THE GULF AND S ATLANTIC COASTAL REGIONS.
THE NEW ECMWF SEEMS SLOWER TO BRING THE ARCTIC AIR S INTO THE NERN
CONUS BY THE MIDDLE OF NEXT WEEK.... AND MAY BE WAITING FOR YET
ANOTHER SHORTWAVE TO DELIVER THE FULL FORCE OF THE ARCTIC AIR SWD
INTO THE COUNTRY.




FLOOD
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#990 Postby rhoby13 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:43 pm

Dang, what happened to the forecasters today? Didn't make it out of the lower 40's here in Austin...
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#991 Postby natlib » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:52 pm

The Accuweather forecast for San Angelo from 12/20-12/23 reflects the cold air with rain and a flurry.
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#992 Postby srainhoutx » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:39 pm

Cosgrove had some interesting thoughts tonight...

The cold breezes felt on Wednesday afternoon will linger into Thursday and Friday, albeit from a different direction as the weekend approaches. The center of high pressure (which contains the coldest part of the domain) will move eastward and not due south into Texas, so the harshest drop in temperature will bypass the Lone Star State. Still, readings will feel raw due to increasing moisture content in the atmosphere, brought about by a return flow off of the Gulf of Mexico.

Rain that falls on Friday and early Saturday will likely be in the light to moderate range. A disturbance forming over the western Gulf of Mexico will not intensify until it is past the Houston-Galveston metro, dropping heavier rainfall across Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama this weekend. Once the low pressure center moves on, much warmer temperatures will take over on Sunday and Monday.

With the warmer air will come an increased chance at showers and thunderstorms, most of which should occur on December 14. A strong cold front and trough complex (note the vigorous jet stream wind maximum in the right portion of the trough) will push through Texas on Monday evening, followed by a more meaningful drop in temperature that could take readings on Tuesday to near freezing by nightfall.

Judging by the upper air pattern setting up, increasingly cold weather will be our lot in life as the holiday period approaches. The impressive Kelvin wave connection to storms over the northern Pacific Ocean as well as the subtropical jet stream, running from near the International Dateline through Mexico. With the southern branch spawning an important storm near the mouth of the Rio Grande River around December 19 - 20, the potential exists for both record cold and heavy (possibly frozen) precipitation in areas east of the Rocky Mountains in the days before, and including, Christmas.


:cheesy:
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#993 Postby snow and ice » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:04 pm

The afternoon Ensembles show an arctic front entering the southern plains and Texas in the 8-12 day period.

http://wwwt.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/ens/t ... 20912.html
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Re:

#994 Postby wxgirl69 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:38 pm

snow and ice wrote:The afternoon Ensembles show an arctic front entering the southern plains and Texas in the 8-12 day period.

http://wwwt.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/ens/t ... 20912.html



I can not read models. How cold does this afternoon ensemble show for Texas?
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#995 Postby srainhoutx » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:35 am

Noticing a trend with the WFO's across the TX this morning of lowering temps in anticipation of next week 's advertised Canadian Front. Seems to be a consensus growing in lack of confidence in guidance and the under estimation of how strong the front will likely be. We are at the range where guidance can certainly vary from run to run, but did notice the 00Z ECMWF has somewhat locked into a colder solution for beyond Monday of next week. We shall see.
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#996 Postby srainhoutx » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:30 am

Morning e-mail from Jeff. Some pertinent information for TX regarding his thoughts on what may be ahead...

Highly active El Nino enhanced southern jet will send our next storm system into the region Friday-Saturday.



Short waves lined up over the eastern Pacific in an active southern branch jet stream, while cold air continues to advect southward from the plains. Freeze line is currently from near Cleveland to Tomball to Austin and may sag a tad southward yet this morning. Given increasing high level cirrus today and continued low level cold air advection on NE winds…temperatures will struggle to get out of the 40’s.



Shortwave runs aground the Baja region tonight and helps to induce the infamous NW Gulf surface low pressure on Friday (seems like every few days we get a NW Gulf surface low this Fall). Low and coastal trough looks to form along the low TX coast with strong 300K isentropic lift starting Friday morning and really ramping up Friday evening as 850mb winds turn south and overrun (upglide) the cold dome at the surface. Will see light rain/drizzle early become widespread showers by Friday afternoon with a few thunderstorms possible Friday night/early Saturday. Coastal low will track offshore the upper TX coast and toward the LA coast with any severe weather being out over the open Gulf waters. Will see highs only near 50 on Friday as clouds, rain, and NE winds keep cold air advection in place. Widespread rainfall amounts of .25-.75 will be common with isolated amounts of 1.50 inches possible especially along the coast.



Tides may also be an issue late Friday into Saturday as winds ramp up in the offshore waters as the coastal low approaches. For now it does not look as if any warning levels will be exceeded…but locations on Bolivar could have some standing water at high tide.



System exits east Saturday with skies clearing and near seasonal temperatures for a change after our stretch of below average days…this will be short lived however as strong polar boundary surges southward down the plains on the backside of our next storm due in Monday. This system looks to be similar to Friday’s event however the surface low may be closer to the coast and some of the area may get warm sectored…like last Tuesday. Strong polar front rushes in by Tuesday of next week and will go colder than the GFS as I do not believe it is handling the cold air all that great and the pattern with a 1040mb high over the plains favors this dense air mass to drop quickly southward and likely be colder than guidance suggests. Will continue to watch…but trends point toward an increasingly cold period from the middle to next week through Christmas with our active southern stream continuing
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#997 Postby double D » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:27 am

I hope Jeff is right because the last 3 runs of the GFS has the brunt of the cold air well east of Texas. I do have to say that the GFS is notorious for losing the cold air and then show it again a couple of days later. :roll:
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#998 Postby srainhoutx » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:40 am

:uarrow:
HPC Prelim Extended Dsico gives some "hints" of their thinking. Remember the OP's are going to flip flop a lot in the days ahead. The underlined and bolded paragragh is the important issues and why you see the longer range information coming from various forecasters. Trends folks, trends. Remember the "stepping down" analogy regarding colder air and their strength. That is exactly what we have seen so far with each passing Arctic front. :wink:

PRELIMINARY EXTENDED FORECAST DISCUSSION
NWS HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL PREDICTION CENTER CAMP SPRINGS MD
858 AM EST THU DEC 10 2009

VALID 12Z MON DEC 14 2009 - 12Z THU DEC 17 2009

THE COMBINATION OF NEGATIVE HGT ANOMALIES OVER THE ERN PAC BETWEEN
ALASKA AND HAWAII...ALONG WITH A STRONG CORE OF POSITIVE ANOMALIES
NEAR GREENLAND BY THE D+7/D+8 TIME FRAME...IS EXPECTED TO YIELD A
WRN RIDGE/ERN TROF MEAN PATTERN BY LATE IN THE MEDIUM RANGE
PERIOD. GFS/GEFS MEAN SOLNS ARE SOMEWHAT MORE AMPLIFIED THAN THE
ECMWF/12Z AND 00Z ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEAN FOR THIS PART OF THE FCST.
TELECONNECTIONS RELATIVE TO THE ABOVE ANOMALIES...ACCOUNTING FOR
POTENTIAL ERROR IN FCST ANOMALY POSNS...SEEM TO FAVOR A SOLN
BETWEEN THE TWO EXTREMES.

UPDATED PRELIM PROGS KEPT THE BASIC CONCEPTS OF THE EARLY
GFS/ECMWF/GEFS/ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEAN BLEND...BUT SUBSTITUTED THE
LATER 00Z/10 ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEAN FOR YESTERDAYS CORRESPONDING
12Z/09 MEAN. THE TWO ECMWF MEANS WERE IN VERY GOOD AGREEMENT.

THE DAYS 3-5 SUN-TUE EARLY PRELIM FCST HAD STARTED WITH A
GFS/ECMWF BLEND TO ACCOUNT FOR CURRENT GUIDANCE SPREAD WHILE
MAINTAINING REASONABLE OPERATIONAL MODEL DETAIL. WHILE THE GFS IS
AN OUTLIER WITH ITS CLOSED LOW REACHING E OF HUDSON BAY BY EARLY
MON... MOST OF THE CONUS FCST IS NOT AFFECTED BY THIS ASPECT OF
THE GFS. DAYS 6-7 ADDED GREATER WEIGHTING OF THE 00Z GEFS/12Z
ECMWF ENSEMBLE MEANS TO DOWNPLAY LOWER CONFIDENCE OPERATIONAL
DETAILS.... ARRIVING AT AN INTERMEDIATE AMPLITUDE FOR THE MEAN
PATTERN BY THAT TIME.

AGAIN TODAY THE MOST SIGNIFICANT FORECAST PROBLEM APPEARS TO BE
HOW MUCH COLD AIR IS ABLE TO SINK S FROM CANADA INTO THE LOWER 48
STATES THE FIRST PART OF NEXT WEEK. IN GENERAL... THE GFS FAMILY
OF SOLUTIONS ALLOWS HEFTIER COOLING S INTO THE CONUS THAN THE
CORRESPONDING ECMWF FAMILY. THIS IS ESPECIALLY EVIDENT IN THE
ENSEMBLE SPAGHETTI PLOTS FOR NEXT TUE-THU DAYS 5-7.
OTHER THINGS
BEING EQUAL...COLD AIR TENDS TO WIN AN AIRMASS FIGHT...SO WE ARE A
LITTLE MORE THAN HALF WAY TOWARDS THE COLDER GFS FAMILY OF
SOLUTIONS.
THE ECMWF FAMILY OF SOLUTIONS IS FAIRLY FLAT ACROSS THE
LOWER 48 STATES TUE-THU PENDING THE POSSIBLE INCREASE IN AMPLITUDE
TO A WRN RIDGE/ERN TROF PATTERN NEAR THE END OF THE PERIOD.


STARTING IN THE SHORT RANGE 00Z/10 MODELS/ENSEMBLES OFFERED
DIVERSE SOLNS REGARDING THE PRECISE EVOLUTION OF CLOSED LOW ENERGY
OVER SRN CANADA AND AS A RESULT DIFFER SOMEWHAT OVER THE NRN CONUS
AS WELL. GUIDANCE HAS BEEN VERY INCONSISTENT WITH EXPECTED FLOW
OVER THIS AREA FOR THE PAST FEW DAYS SO CONFIDENCE IS BELOW
AVERAGE IN ANY PARTICULAR SOLN. FOR THE PAST 24 HRS OR SO THE
ECMWF HAS STABILIZED UPON A FAIRLY SLOW CLOSED LOW PROGRESSION.
THE 00Z GFS STARTS OUT THE FCST PERIOD ALREADY OUTPACING THE GEFS
MEAN WITH LEADING CLOSED LOW ENERGY BUT IN TIME THE GFS USES
TRAILING ENERGY TO FORM ANOTHER CLOSED LOW NEAR THE CONSENSUS POSN
BY DAY 6 WED. EXACTLY HOW THIS SRN CANADA/NRN CONUS FLOW EVOLVES
WILL IMPACT THE EVOLUTION OF LOW PRESSURE WHICH MOST
MODEL/ENSEMBLE SOLNS BRING INTO THE GRTLKS BY DAY 4 MON. FARTHER
SWD... LATEST MODEL RUNS GENERALLY AGREE THAT PAC ENERGY REACHING
THE SOUTHWEST EARLY SUN SHOULD BE FAIRLY SHEARED AS IT PROGRESSES
ACROSS THE CONUS... KEEPING ANY SRN CONUS FRONTAL WAVES FAIRLY
MODEST IN STRENGTH. FINALLY WITH THE WAVE FCST TO BE NEAR THE
SERN COAST EARLY SUN...THERE IS IMPROVED AGREEMENT UPON A FAIRLY
WEAK SOLN. THIS SEEMS REASONABLE GIVEN MOST NON-CANADIAN GUIDANCE
THAT IS QUITE WEAK WITH SUPPORTING MID LVL ENERGY.



RAUSCH/FLOOD
A
Last edited by srainhoutx on Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#999 Postby Portastorm » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:54 am

As srainhoutx said so well ... we need to be mindful that the operational model runs of both the GFS and Euro are going to flip flop as they both struggle with the pattern. Focus on trends and what we do know. The Arctic Oscillation is tanking off the charts and the North Atlantic Oscillation is strongly negative. These two markers alone point towards very cold air flowing into a deep trough over the Eastern US with ridging in the western US. The question is ... as someone pointed out the other day ... where does the trough set up and how big is it?

Also, the El Nino signal is strengthening which means the subtropical jetstream will contain vigorous storms flowing west to east. With ridging in the West, its possible the jetstream is displaced very far south.

As excited as some of us have been, it is possible that -- as snow and ice pointed out earlier this week -- we only receive brushing glances of cold, Arctic air and the worst of it is east of us. That is a scenario on the table and must be considered.

If the operational runs keep painting a less dramatic picture for the Southern Plains and Texas over the next few days, we should consider that eventuality. All that being said, I hope that doesn't happen! :wink:
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Re: Texas winter wx thread (2009-2010)

#1000 Postby HockeyTx82 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:19 am

Why do I have a feeling that we are going to miss out next week? :(
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