ANOTHER midwest winter storm NOV 27-29-- EUS event DEC 1-3?

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ANOTHER midwest winter storm NOV 27-29-- EUS event DEC 1-3?

#1 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:26 pm

The system which WAS (last week) looking like it would end up being a snow or wintry threat for the MA, NE or ERN OV is now not looking that way.

The Culprit? Look no further than The NAO.

Last weekend several runs of the ECMWF indicated the development of a STRONG rex-blocking set-up/MAJOR split flow over the North ATL as the system which is currently dumping snow on the Midwest lifted NE toward Newfoundland and became the new 50-50 low. At the same time a similar strong trough was PROGGED to develop over SCANDINAVIA-- this would shorten the wavelengths over the North Atlantic and allow the ridge to build over Greenland, thereby initiating a powerfully –NAO. Some of the data developed a large omega block which retrograded westward into Canada.

The idea was that a s/w sliding down the ridge off the west coast into the 4-corners region lift northeast into the plain on SUN and MON, but b/c of the 50-50 low and block—the s/w would be forced to stay south (having to around the 50-50 low instead of being able to run northward into the lakes w/o resistance IF the 50-50 low and block were not there). The SLP would have developed in the central/NWRN GOM and headed NE into the OV before transferring to the MA coast setting the stage for a MILLER TYPE B significant east coast snowstorm.

Image

Supporting the idea were also a few runs of the UKMET and GGEM. BUT, by now you are probably aware this scenario is NOT going to happen.

INSTEAD the NE, MA and Eastern Lakes will miss out on this one. For the Midwest and Lakes however it looks like another winter storm for NOV 27-29.

What should happen is the event today lifts northeastward into SE Canada—BUT instead of becoming the new 50-50 low, sharpening the wavelengths and pumping the ridge over Greenland-- it will simply continue to lift northeastward to Greenland resulting in a +NAO.

So w/ NO 50-50 low, a +NAO and the PV off the playing field in NW Canada this will be a MIDWEST and LAKES event snow and winter wise. The basic line of thinking here is simple the s/w kicks out of the 4-corners region FRI and out into AR/LA/TX region by SAT where it lifts northeastward into the lakes SUN and phases w/ another s/w coming through the upper Midwest meanwhile The SLP will develop on D3 over Eastern OK and head NNE to a position over the NW portion of SRN MI.

500mb hgt/vort
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... ge=800x630
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... ge=800x630

MSLP
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... &cu=latest
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... &cu=latest

Ahead of it in the warm sector there will be yet another severe wx episode not dissimilar to what we just dealt with over TN, MS, LA, and AR as the s/w approaches from the west. There appears to be a favorable upper level jet structure w/ the region being in the exit region of a 116 KT jet streak which would promote upper level divergence and upward motion aided by increasing DPVA ahead of the vortmax. Furthermore, there appears to be a decent 50-55 KT low level moisture transporting jet directed at the region which would help to aid Storm-relative inflow.

Nevertheless, MOST signs seem to point to a rather BIG svr wx event in the same place as there was yesterday. As if they really need it.

http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... &cu=latest

It also means MORE heavy rain for the NE except for perhaps northern Maine initially where there might be enough cold air in place for P-type problems at the start but we have a few days to work on the details.

More important to note is the potential for real BIG flooding problems in the NE as well as perhaps some SVR wx. There appears to be a similar strong low level Southeasterly jet on the order of 50+ KT directed at the northeast at the same time as the region falls under the influence of the left exit region of a potent upper jet to the south. There should be VEERING of the flow w/ height that could help tornadic potential near the warm front.

http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... &cu=latest
http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... &cu=latest

IF I had to make a guess on where the snow would fall I would say a bit further NW of where it is today based on the track of the s/w and SLP. This includes anyone from NW MO, IA, and NW IL into WI and eventually the UP of Michigan.

NOW this is where it gets fun for the NE and MA!

As the ridge begins to amplify off the west coast on D3 a new and STRONGER s/w will slide SE into the four corners region but will NOT be allowed to cutoff from the flow since there is a Kicker upstream off of BC on D5 that come onshore the PAC NW on D6.

http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... ge=800x630

At the same time the PV will intensify and begin to push southeastward toward the NW shore of Hudson Bay by D7 as the s/w comes out into the plains.

http://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/gen_ ... ge=800x630

This is a GOOD position for an east coast event, since the PV is not off the playing field but at the same rate, NOT suppressing the flow and shearing everything apart. It will be in the right position as to preclude the s/w from moving northeastward into the lakes like the past two have, but instead keep it on basically and eastward track.

The fact that the PV is sliding southward into the aforesaid position would open the door once again for the NAO to turn negative since the PV would pump the ridge quit a bit downstream.

What i THINK will happen here is you will get a SFC low to develop in the WRN GOM and ride NE into the Lower OV before being forced to go to the coast. This has the POTENTIAL to be the first reputable winter storm for the NE DEC 1-3.
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#2 Postby Wnghs2007 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:13 pm

Good Discussion.

Also HKY_WX has said that the models are showing some kind of high pressure system In the NE that time frame. And that it is possible for some In-situ type Wedge to set up...But its to far out to know for sure. Could get icey Possibly for North NC and Virginia, HKY_WX says.
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#3 Postby Anonymous » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:19 pm

Excellent discussion!

I have a question. What synoptic features would have to be in place for a Miller-B scenario to give the Mid Atlantic an appreciable snowfall of about 6 inches?

Usually Miller B's jump to the EUS Coast but by the time the coastal gets its act together, it has progressed so far north that the central MA only gets light pcpn or nothing.

-Jeb
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#4 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:21 pm

Wnghs2007 wrote:Good Discussion.

Also HKY_WX has said that the models are showing some kind of high pressure system In the NE that time frame. And that it is possible for some In-situ type Wedge to set up...But its to far out to know for sure. Could get icey Possibly for North NC and Virginia, HKY_WX says.


I can see why he would think that, and it is an interesting scenario. But notice I avoided discussing anything specific WRT the POSSIBLE EUS event (I stress Possible) beyond what my guess on the SLP track is? I did it b/c I’m not sure exactly what’s going to happen yet. And I don’t want to stick my foot in my mouth again like I did w/ the next Midwest event—irresponsibly assuming it was going to be a EUS event based on two runs of the ECMWF/GGEM and UKMET.

Another thing is that damned PAC jet. Until we can get rid of that, and the SSTA setup changes, all hope hinges on the NAO for the MA and NE.
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#5 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:24 pm

Jeb wrote:Excellent discussion!

I have a question. What synoptic features would have to be in place for a Miller-B scenario to give the Mid Atlantic an appreciable snowfall of about 6 inches?

Usually Miller B's jump to the EUS Coast but by the time the coastal gets its act together, it has progressed so far north that the central MA only gets light pcpn or nothing.

-Jeb


it all depends on

1) the track of the 500mb low or s/w

2) Where the 850mb low jumps to the coast

3) how quickly the SLP deepens below 1000mb assuming it does and where it tracks
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#6 Postby Wnghs2007 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:24 pm

wxguy25 wrote:
Wnghs2007 wrote:Good Discussion.

Also HKY_WX has said that the models are showing some kind of high pressure system In the NE that time frame. And that it is possible for some In-situ type Wedge to set up...But its to far out to know for sure. Could get icey Possibly for North NC and Virginia, HKY_WX says.


I can see why he would think that, and it is an interesting scenario. But notice I avoided discussing anything specific WRT the POSSIBLE EUS event (I stress Possible) beyond what my guess on the SLP track is? I did it b/c I’m not sure exactly what’s going to happen yet. And I don’t want to stick my foot in my mouth again like I did w/ the next Midwest event—irresponsibly assuming it was going to be a EUS event based on two runs of the ECMWF/GGEM and UKMET.

Another thing is that damned PAC jet. Until we can get rid of that, and the SSTA setup changes, all hope hinges on the NAO for the MA and NE.



LOL...I know I put that thermal blanket for my pool somewhere....Now lets see...I need 1 about 1,000 miles wide by 1,500 miles long...Hmmm Right position....Now just wait 3 weeks and the water temps should be in the 90's...ROFL in the NE pacific..
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#7 Postby Anonymous » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:28 pm

Geesh, not the PAC JET again.....I shed more tears over the PAC JET last winter than over anything else LOL.


-Jeb
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#8 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:30 pm

Jeb wrote:Geesh, not the PAC JET again.....I shed more tears over the PAC JET last winter than over anything else LOL.


-Jeb


Well until warmer SSTA get in the GOA thats the way its going to be.
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#9 Postby Anonymous » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:32 pm

wxguy25 wrote:
Jeb wrote:Excellent discussion!

I have a question. What synoptic features would have to be in place for a Miller-B scenario to give the Mid Atlantic an appreciable snowfall of about 6 inches?

Usually Miller B's jump to the EUS Coast but by the time the coastal gets its act together, it has progressed so far north that the central MA only gets light pcpn or nothing.

-Jeb


it all depends on

1) the track of the 500mb low or s/w

2) Where the 850mb low jumps to the coast

3) how quickly the SLP deepens below 1000mb assuming it does and where it tracks


Thanks for your response, wxguy! :D :D
I'll start praying for those three components to come together so that the entire Mid Atlantic region gets blessed with a 3-foot gift for all our snow geese.

I am looking forward to winter! I have my snow digging shovels all ready and lined up in a row!

BRING IT!! BRING IT!!!

-Arctic Jeb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D
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#10 Postby Anonymous » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:34 pm

Alright wxguy, how do we get those Gulf of Alaska SST's warmed up?



-Jeb
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#11 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:35 pm

Jeb wrote:
wxguy25 wrote:
Jeb wrote:Excellent discussion!

I have a question. What synoptic features would have to be in place for a Miller-B scenario to give the Mid Atlantic an appreciable snowfall of about 6 inches?

Usually Miller B's jump to the EUS Coast but by the time the coastal gets its act together, it has progressed so far north that the central MA only gets light pcpn or nothing.

-Jeb


it all depends on

1) the track of the 500mb low or s/w

2) Where the 850mb low jumps to the coast

3) how quickly the SLP deepens below 1000mb assuming it does and where it tracks


Thanks for your response, wxguy! :D :D
I'll start praying for those three components to come together so that the entire Mid Atlantic region gets blessed with a 3-foot <a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=11&k=gift%20for" onmouseover="window.status='gift for'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">gift for</a> all our snow geese.

I am looking forward to winter! I have my snow digging shovels all ready and lined up in a row!

BRING IT!! BRING IT!!!

-Arctic Jeb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D


To be sure that DCA is going to get slammed, I would like to see a SLP deepen to at or below 1000mb before reaching the VA coast. the other critical component is having the 50-50 low there to hold the high in place.
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#12 Postby Wnghs2007 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:36 pm

wxguy25 wrote:
Jeb wrote:Geesh, not the PAC JET again.....I shed more tears over the PAC JET last winter than over anything else LOL.


-Jeb


Well until warmer SSTA get in the GOA thats the way its going to be.


What will make them migrate? Flow of air, Ridge, etc? What? And does it look like anything. Besides the constant birage of lows, that could pull up warmer water.[HM's Idea on what will cause the Warmer SSTAs into GOA]. What would make it change? Would that polar vortex in Russia moving into the NW Pacific make it change, If it were to happen?
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#13 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:39 pm

Jeb wrote:Alright wxguy, how do we get those Gulf of Alaska SST's warmed up?



-Jeb


The warm pool has to re-develop in the GOA and a cool pool will need to form between HI and the Aleutian Islands. That would result in an optimal situation for the development of a persistent Aleutian low and +PNA pattern.

Remember the PNA reflects a tripole of anomalous heights w/ the primary center being over the NPAC and a secondary center of similar over the SE us.
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#14 Postby Wnghs2007 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:42 pm

wxguy25 wrote:
Jeb wrote:Alright wxguy, how do we get those Gulf of Alaska SST's warmed up?



-Jeb


The warm pool has to re-develop in the GOA and a cool pool will need to form between HI and the Aleutian Islands. That would result in an optimal situation for the development of a persistent Aleutian low and +PNA pattern.

Remember the PNA reflects a tripole of anomalous heights w/ the primary center being over the NPAC and a secondary center of similar over the SE us.


So basically the movement of the Polar Vortex from Russia into the NW pacific could possibly bring up the SSTA's in the GOA? Or am I wrong?
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#15 Postby Anonymous » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:42 pm

I wish that whatever it is that makes the GOA SSTs warm up, would happen so the PAC JET would back off some. It would be nice.

-Jeb
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#16 Postby Wnghs2007 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:45 pm

Also if we could get that small trough thats over Hawaii to push east, to the east of HI, Then that may serve to an effect to push the SE ridge off the coast of SE US? I think I heard this from Raleighwx...
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#17 Postby Anonymous » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:46 pm

Hey wxguy and all the other wx experts here, I want you to exhaustively teach me EVERYTHING that has to come together to make an optimal EUS severe cold and severe snow winter, then I will pray for them like crazy!!!

After that, Watch out EUS! The last time I prayed for snow like that was January/March 2003.

Look what happened in the East in February.

I can't help it, I love snow. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


-Jeb
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#18 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:54 pm

Wnghs2007 wrote:
wxguy25 wrote:
Jeb wrote:Alright wxguy, how do we get those Gulf of Alaska SST's warmed up?



-Jeb


The warm pool has to re-develop in the GOA and a cool pool will need to form between HI and the Aleutian Islands. That would result in an optimal situation for the development of a persistent Aleutian low and +PNA pattern.

Remember the PNA reflects a tripole of anomalous heights w/ the primary center being over the NPAC and a secondary center of similar over the SE us.


So basically the movement of the Polar Vortex from Russia into the NW pacific could possibly bring up the SSTA's in the GOA? Or am I wrong?


changes in WIndstress over the region can accomplish this. you would need to see a SW flow develop over the GOA and NW flow over the NW pac to develop the warm and cool SSTA couplet.
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#19 Postby wxguy25 » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:55 pm

Wnghs2007 wrote:Also if we could get that small trough thats over Hawaii to push east, to the east of HI, Then that may serve to an effect to push the SE ridge off the coast of SE US? I think I heard this from Raleighwx...


Yeah, when the Sub-tropical trough is east of hawaii the trough comes into the EUS.
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#20 Postby Anonymous » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:00 pm

Okay, what meteorological features contribute to the development of southwesterly winds over the GOA and northwesterly winds over the NW Pac?


-Jeb
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