Are we approaching a methane tipping point?

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Are we approaching a methane tipping point?

#1 Postby x-y-no » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:13 pm

Interesting article in Spiegel Online:

It's always been a disturbing what-if scenario for climate researchers: Gas hydrates stored in the Arctic ocean floor -- hard clumps of ice and methane, conserved by freezing temperatures and high pressure -- could grow unstable and release massive amounts of methane into the atmosphere. Since methane is a potent greenhouse gas, more worrisome than carbon dioxide, the result would be a drastic acceleration of global warming. Until now this idea was mostly academic; scientists had warned that such a thing could happen. Now it seems more likely that it will.

Russian polar scientists have strong evidence that the first stages of melting are underway. They've studied largest shelf sea in the world, off the coast of Siberia, where the Asian continental shelf stretches across an underwater area six times the size of Germany, before falling off gently into the Arctic Ocean. The scientists are presenting their data from this remote, thinly-investigated region at the annual conference of the European Geosciences Union this week in Vienna.

...

The permafrost has grown porous, says Shakhova, and already the shelf sea has become "a source of methane passing into the atmosphere."

...

Data from offshore drilling in the region, studied by experts at the Alfred Wegener Institute for Polar and Marine Research (AWI), also suggest that the situation has grown critical. AWI's results show that permafrost in the flat shelf is perilously close to thawing. Three to 12 kilometers from the coast, the temperature of sea sediment was -1 to -1.5 degrees Celsius, just below freezing. Permafrost on land, though, was as cold as -12.4 degrees Celsius. "That's a drastic difference and the best proof of a critical thermal status of the submarine permafrost," said Shakhova.

Paul Overduin, a geophysicist at AWI, agreed. "She's right," he said. "Changes are far more likely to occur on the sea shelf than on land."


I look forward to reading this research when published. It certainly makes intuitive sense that given the recent loss of sea ice north of Siberia that this relatively shallow shelf would be thawing. Given methane's powerful greenhouse effect, this is disturbing.
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Matt-hurricanewatcher

#2 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:43 pm

No, methane is less then .01% of the Atmosphere, also sst's of the ocean are not warming overall at this moment. Heck its cooler because of the la nina. So it should be able to hold more co2 and other gases. The oceans are what keeps our planet froming turning into another Venus.
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Re: Are we approaching a methane tipping point?

#3 Postby xironman » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:51 am

Methane has been very stable since the beginning of the century, last years uptick http://au.news.yahoo.com/080423/2/16lfb.html is a bit interesting but one years is not a trend.
The amount of methane increased by 0.5 per cent, or 27 million tonnes, after nearly a decade of little or no change, according preliminary figures to scientists at the government's Earth System Research Laboratory in Colorado.
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Re: Are we approaching a methane tipping point?

#4 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:33 am

IIRC, an underwater volcanic event a long time ago off Japan triggered a big hydrate melt off, and resulted in a warm period. So melting hydrates could be a problem, if a big enough melt-off ever did occur.
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Re:

#5 Postby x-y-no » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:04 am

Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:No, methane is less then .01% of the Atmosphere,


What's your point? This has no bearing on the possibility of a significant release of methane from the continental shelf north of Siberia. Or are you claiming that methane is not a significant greenhouse gas? If so, that's simply false.

also sst's of the ocean are not warming overall at this moment. Heck its cooler because of the la nina. So it should be able to hold more co2 and other gases.


You do understand that with regard to ocean temperature, ENSO is a phenomenon of the tropical Pacific, not of the Arctic ocean, don't you?


The oceans are what keeps our planet froming turning into another Venus.


Nobody claims we are going to become another Venus, at least not for billions of years.
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Re: Are we approaching a methane tipping point?

#6 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:52 am

If there was some way to mine the methane in the hydrates. Methane is the lowest CO2 producing fossil fuel.


I saw a scare article about lack of sunspots and a new global cooling with even the possibility of an ice age. So if AGW were in fact correct, than things could balance nicely. For a while.


Of course, if AGW is correct, when the sunspots came back and the natural cycle of warming resumed, it would get really, really warm.


I tend to trust nobody at this point.
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Re: Are we approaching a methane tipping point?

#7 Postby x-y-no » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:46 pm

Ed Mahmoud wrote:If there was some way to mine the methane in the hydrates. Methane is the lowest CO2 producing fossil fuel.


There have been various efforts at this over the years, but as yet no cost-effective process.
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Re: Re:

#8 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:28 pm

x-y-no wrote:
Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:No, methane is less then .01% of the Atmosphere,


What's your point? This has no bearing on the possibility of a significant release of methane from the continental shelf north of Siberia. Or are you claiming that methane is not a significant greenhouse gas? If so, that's simply false.

also sst's of the ocean are not warming overall at this moment. Heck its cooler because of the la nina. So it should be able to hold more co2 and other gases.


You do understand that with regard to ocean temperature, ENSO is a phenomenon of the tropical Pacific, not of the Arctic ocean, don't you?


The oceans are what keeps our planet froming turning into another Venus.


Nobody claims we are going to become another Venus, at least not for billions of years.


True, but I would believe that the oceans could hold a lot more Co2,Methane then they are currently holding. There is a cycle more or less, that does not allow or at least it would be very hard to get to any point in that cycle of no return. Maybe it's possible if it made up more of the Atmosphere, and that case it would fill the oceans faster and forcing more to stay into the Atmosphere. I say its not impossible and is something to watch, but doubt it will peak out the oceans ablity to store it, at least in the short term. I do understand there is more then just the Pacific. I will admit that if it increased a few thousand times we could have a problem.
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#9 Postby x-y-no » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:44 am

It's a problem at two or three times. Thousands would be deadly to most life on Earth.
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#10 Postby Tampa Bay Hurricane » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:48 pm

Methane can trap heat and mean hotter temperatures according to my limited knowledge.
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Matt-hurricanewatcher

Re:

#11 Postby Matt-hurricanewatcher » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:07 pm

Tampa Bay Hurricane wrote:Methane can trap heat and mean hotter temperatures according to my limited knowledge.



Yes, I believe its more powerful green house gas then Co2. That is why its feared so much, but on the other hand it can't stay in the Atmosphere as long.
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#12 Postby KWT » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:21 am

Yeah methane would cause massive warming if it got out in any large amounts, I believe previous extreme warming events have been down to methane release in the past.
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wbug1

Re: Are we approaching a methane tipping point?

#13 Postby wbug1 » Mon May 12, 2008 3:53 am

Methane has a heat trapping capability of 62X (averaged over 20 yrs) that of CO2, at least according to wiki.
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