2005 Atl Reports=Unnamed Subtropical Storm Report Posted

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#141 Postby quandary » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:24 am

MGC wrote:Cindy is the reason there is not much wind damage in New Orleans from Katrina. At my Mom's house in NO East several trees were blown down by Cindy. Katrina did the flooding....MGC


Cindy certainly didn't cause severe damage in NO, so it could've done was weaken a helluva lot of trees for Katrina to destroy if it had done anything at all. Cindy, I'm pretty sure, wasn't Isabel for the East Coast, which just took down millions upon millions of trees. I'm in northern VA and Isabel took down 2 trees in my backyard alone, dozens in the neighborhood and knocked out power universally for weeks. Isabel might mitigate subsequent wind damage by removing the trees, but I don't see how Cindy could've.
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#142 Postby cycloneye » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:49 am

Tropical Storm Arlene= http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ms-word/TCR-AL012005_Arlene.doc

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pdf/TCR-AL012005_Arlene.pdf


Tropical Storm Bret

Tropical Storm Cindy

Hurricane Dennis= http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ms-word/TCR-AL042005_Dennis.doc

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pdf/TCR-AL042005_Dennis.pdf


Hurricane Emily

Tropical Storm Franklin

Tropical Storm Gert= http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ms-word/TCR-AL072005_Gert.doc

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pdf/TCR-AL072005_Gert.pdf


Tropical Storm Harvey

Hurricane Irene

Tropical Depression Ten

Tropical Storm Jose

Hurricane Katrina= http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pdf/TCR-AL122005_Katrina.pdf

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ms-word/TCR-AL1 ... atrina.doc


Tropical Storm Lee = http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ms-word/TCR-AL132005_Lee.doc

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pdf/TCR-AL132005_Lee.pdf


Hurricane Maria

Hurricane Nate

Hurricane Ophelia

Hurricane Philippe

Hurricane Rita

Tropical Depression Nineteen

Hurricane Stan

Tropical Storm Tammy

Sub-Tropical Depression Twenty-Two

Hurricane Vince

Hurricane Wilma

Tropical Storm Alpha

Hurricane Beta

Tropical Storm Gamma

Tropical Storm Delta

Hurricane Epsilon= http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pdf/TCR-AL292005_Epsilon.pdf

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ms-word/TCR-AL2 ... psilon.doc
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#143 Postby Margie » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:32 am

This covers the basics but was pretty bare-boned with regards the analysis in the synoptic history for the first six days of Dec. Guess the questions will have to remain unanswered.
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#144 Postby cycloneye » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:48 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10558235/

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/12/21/k ... index.html

:uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow: :uarrow:

Above is how the Katrinas report is playing in the media (MSNBC and CNN in this case) which are talking about the downgrade of Katrina at landfall.
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#145 Postby Pearl River » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:39 am

The central pressure in Katrina continued to gradually rise during the next few hours leading up to its final landfall near the Louisiana/Mississippi border at about 1445 UTC, when the pressure had reached 928 mb. The eastern eyewall of the hurricane remained too distant from the NWS Slidell WSR-88D radar during this period for the radar to provide near-surface wind estimates where the strongest winds were occurring.

I have a question and hope someone can answer it for me. The last picture from Slidell NWS radar was at 1359 UTC when it went down. So there could have been no radar picture at 1445 UTC. If it was up, then the eastern eyewall would only have been about 15 miles due east from the radar. Then wouldn't the above from the report be wrong?
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#146 Postby Derek Ortt » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:01 pm

no because ther adar would be measuring winds at the top of the boundary layer
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#147 Postby Pearl River » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:03 pm

Derek said

no because ther adar would be measuring winds at the top of the boundary layer


Thanks for the answer
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#148 Postby Tstormwatcher » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:57 pm

Here is a detailed report I found on wunderground. http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/show.html
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#149 Postby cycloneye » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:01 pm

Tstormwatcher wrote:Here is a detailed report I found on wunderground. http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/show.html


I always read JeffMasters good discussions that he does and about the Katrina report he says interesting things.Thanks for posting it.
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#150 Postby docjoe » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:23 pm

HurricaneBill wrote:
Andrew92 wrote:Whoops :oops: my mistake.

Still, not as much as I was expecting, but still a devastating hurricane indeed.

-Andrew92


Yes. I was looking at photos of the hardest hit areas on the panhandle. It seems like the areas that were hit, were hit very hard.


I will vouch for that. Although the scope was small the damage within the path of Dennis was quite severe. It was quite underreported. However those of us in Santa Rosa county have gotten used to the fact that if it doesnt impact Pensacola severely then it must not have been bad for anyone!!

docjoe
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#151 Postby cycloneye » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:34 pm

I asume that the majority has read the long Katrina Report and that is why I changed the title of this thread to the original one.Apart from the reports that I post at this thread when they are released you can replie here and comment about any of the reports but I know that the attention lately has been on the Katrinas one.

Now the score is 6 reports up,23 are left.Still there are very important reports that are not out yet and many are waiting for them.I guess that Cindy,Emily,Rita,Wilma and Vince are among those in which the attention will focus as soon they are released.
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#152 Postby f5 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:58 am

Katrina must of been the longest report i ever read.its also of of the saddest reports detailing how many people lost their homes how many people drowned ect
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#153 Postby MiamiensisWx » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:26 pm

f5 wrote:Katrina must of been the longest report i ever read.its also of of the saddest reports detailing how many people lost their homes how many people drowned ect


Agreed.
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#154 Postby Margie » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:57 pm

There were a number of questions about the surge levels for Katrina, and so I have written some notes on a brief analysis that I'd already done when the FEMA reports came out. Until better information becomes available this addresses the question of what levels of surge, and how much of the coastline received each level of surge.

Also after considering the statement in the report that surge only came inland about 12 miles along rivers or bays, I understand now that they are talking specifically about the salt water; the additional flooding inland of that was caused by the surge, but does not contain salt water from the GOM.


Notes on Katrina's surge levels

Not all of the information on Katrina's surge along the MS Gulf Coast has been made available. The initial NHC Katrina report did not go into extensive detail about the surge.

High water marks do not by themselves denote surge levels. High water marks, especially outdoor ones, also include height from waves. Waves right at the shoreline can be quite high. Allegedly a DVD with amateur video which was distributed locally in limited quantities in MS, showed approximately 30 foot waves at the shore in Gulfport. Wave estimates at the shore there were already in that range; waves on top of the 20+ foot surge there were large enough to wash all the dolphins out of their 30 foot high tank at the marina. However wave action, even as small as half a foot, can travel very far inland. Tides are also a factor in computing the actual surge. Tides along the MS Gulf Coast are not a significant factor; the difference between high and low tides is only a couple of feet at most. This factor is easy to take into account as the times and heights of high and low tide are known. These factors must be subtracted to obtain the water height generated from the hurricane surge.

Just as with sustained wind values, identifying the highest level of surge is not the same thing as saying that level of surge occurred everywhere. It is important to quantify the extent of the area flooded by each category of surge.

We can make an unofficial but informed guess as to what areas of the MS coast received what categories of surge, based on information currently available, with the caveat that it may be changed later, and we are not 100% certain of its accuracy.

What tools are currently available on the internet to determine this information?

First, FEMA has published maps of the surge on the MS coastline. These maps show an extremely limited number of high water marks, mostly outside, and that information is too sparse right now to give an overall picture of the surge. Along with these selected high-water marks (which the NHC Katrina report may possibly have implied are not valid because the wave and tide levels have not been subtracted yet), the FEMA maps show all areas which were flooded, by some level of water, by the surge. This may mean only one foot of water from surge (as in the parking lot of the Jackson County sub station in Ocean Springs), to 25 feet of water from surge (as along the southern coast of the Waveland / Bay St. Louis area).

http://www.fema.gov/hazards/floods/reco ... index.shtm

Second, we can use detailed online elevation maps such as Topozone, to identify the elevation at any location along the coast.

http://www.topozone.com

Third, we can use the Hurricane Evacuation Study (HES) maps for Mississippi, from the USACE web site, or the interactive tool from NOAA Coastal Services Center (which will zoom into any specified address). These maps were generated from SLOSH runs (the parameters for the runs are documented as well), and seem to be extraordinarily accurate. These maps show what areas of each county, down to individual addresses, would be flooded for each of the five hurricane category classifications. The HES maps do not show a range of heights associated with each hurricane category, and there is a good reason for that: the height differs with each location based on surrounding topography.

http://chps.sam.usace.army.mil/USHESdat ... select.htm

http://ekman.csc.noaa.gov/website/FEMA_ ... ississippi

By comparing the elevation maps to the HES maps, we can determine at what level each category of surge begins, based on the location. Thus, Category 4 surge begins at 21 feet for BSL, Pass Christian, and Ocean Springs, but at only 15 feet for Pascagoula. This last may have been an error on the part of the model, underestimating the vulnerability of this location, because these Cat 4 levels on the map were flooded, or there may have been certain characteristics of the surge that resulted in an anomaly with higher surge here, because the flooding of the Pascagoula River Basin in general was extreme (
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookin ... trina.html ).

Fourth, FEMA has also provided an overview map with their estimates on the height of the surge across the MS coastal region.

http://www.fema.gov/hazards/floods/reco ... erview.pdf

Finally, to back up the FEMA flood maps, we can go directly to the aerial images from NOAA taken shortly after the event (but of course this would be after most of the floodwater had receeded). It cannot always be seen from these maps which areas were flooded. In some places, such as in a large part of Hancock County, everything is covered with mud, but other places will not have any discernable sign, and you cannot always go by the debris line as an indicator either.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/


Based on this information, and assuming it to be accurate, we can answer the following questions:

What areas of the MS coast experienced Cat 3 level surge from Katrina? What areas, if any, had Cat 4 level surge? Cat 5? Where did this occur, and how large were these areas?

This is not completely straightforward. It is clear that the highest level of surge did not go very far inland. All of the areas that experienced the highest levels of surge were right on the shore, and most are so low they already flood at Cat 1 level. For those we would want to rely on accurate high-water marks to determine what level surge occurred. But that information is not available right now. Luckily we can go by the FEMA overview map to determine where these areas are. Secondly we can look at the areas along the coastline that were at an elevation of Cat 4 or Cat 5, and see if any of these areas flooded. The problem with this method is that there is very little actual real estate along the entire coastline that is that high, as the MS coast is one of many areas in the US that is a flood plain. Also, these areas may not all be right on the coast.

In addition, the FEMA overview map only lists the surge in terms of feet. How can we determine what level of surge that corresponds to? Considering it can be different depending on location, we have to first use the elevation maps in conjunction with the HES maps to find out where Cat 3, Cat 4, and Cat 5 surges begin.

Before we get into this level of detail, we find that at a high level, comparing the FEMA overview map to the HES map, solid Cat 3 surge occurred along the entire MS coastline. This Cat 3 surge finally ended, inland, just NE of Pascagoula city limits, at around 611 and Old Mobile Hwy. The extensive amount of land to the south of that location, all the way into AL and to Mobile Bay, was at Cat 1 and 2 level, and was all flooded. So the Cat 3 surge ended inland, just miles short of the AL border. Cat 1 and 2 surge extended eastward into Alabama. On the western edge of the MS coast, in Hancock County, the surge ended just south of the NASA Stennis facility on the MS / LA border, and just north of Kiln and the Diamondhead areas. The most extensive area of inland surge was on the eastern edge of the MS coastline, along the Pascagoula River Basin, and this is predicted on the MS HES maps.

This, just by itself, is really the most remarkable thing about Katrina's surge: the extent of the Cat 3 surge, not the small area that may have been affected by higher Cat 4 or 5 surge.

Did any of these areas at higher surge levels exist?

We know from the overview map that the highest levels of surge, in feet, were along the southern shore of the Waveland / Bay St Louis area, the Diamondhead bay shore area south of I-10, and an area of the coast from about Menge Ave in the Pass, east to the Long Beach / Gulfport border, so we can decide that the coast on either side of Saint Louis Bay is a good place to start identifying the highest level of surge.

Also, we can use the MS HES maps to locate any land that is at Cat 4 or Cat 5 surge level in Hancock and western Harrison Counties. We find that there are very few areas and that they are very small. Just south of the BSL bridge we find the eastern end of four small city blocks that are at Cat 4 level right along the shoreline. Another area of land that will not flood until Cat 4 or Cat 5 level is SW of there, and runs inland, parallel to the southern shoreline, cutting across the man-made lake for the water treatment plant (an easily-found location on a map). The remainder of the Hancock County shoreline, and quite a ways inland, will flood with a Cat 3. In western Harrison County, along the shoreline, we find only one narrow area, starting just west of Menge Ave in Pass Christian, that runs east along the shoreline into Long Beach, Gulfport, and Biloxi, that will only flood at Cat 4 or Cat 5 level.

Locating these areas on topozone.com, and following the brown elevation lines (which are given every five feet, for instance 15, 20, and 25 foot elevations), and comparing with the MS HES maps, we can make a general assessment at what elevation Cat 4 and 5 start for these particular locations. We find that it looks like Cat 4 starts at around 21 feet in elevation in both places, and Cat 5 at 24 feet for BSL, and 25 feet for the Harrison County area previously mentioned. This is a guess, but is probably not off by more than a foot.

Now, we can use the FEMA flood maps to see how much of each of these areas did actually flood.

In BSL, we find that everything was under water except for most (but not all) of the areas that only flood with a Cat 5 surge. We find that the 25 foot surge identified on the FEMA overview map did not reach far enough inland to affect any areas that were not already flooded. We find that all the tiny areas of land at Cat 4 did flood, and the edges of the Cat 5 area around the water treatment plant flooded. So we know that the highest surge in this area was approximately 24 to 25 feet. Perhaps the area on the Waveland / BSL coastline received higher surge, even though they were already well under water, but we will have to wait for accurate high water marks to assess that.

In eastern Pass Christian, we find that the areas that are at Cat 4 level flooded, but the strip of land at Cat 5 level (beginning at 25 feet of elevation) did not. Since this area is right on the shoreline, we can conclude the surge there reached 25 feet but did not go much over that, if any, and most likely did not reach Cat 5 level.

We can conclude that one very small area of the MS coastline, the immediate coast of Waveland and southern BSL, was subjected to a surge that just barely edged over the Cat 5 level. This area was so small compared to the total area of land inundated by surge, that it is almost negligible, statistically speaking. The elevation of this area was already so low that it was well underwater, the difference in the height of the surge was probably not a significant factor in incurring the total property devastation, but, if it can be quantified, will be useful for denoting the record height of the surge.

The areas that received Cat 4 surge were Waveland and the part of BSL that curves into the bay and GOM, and a small portion of coastline along eastern Pass Christian, to the Long Beach / Gulfport border, and Diamondhead area south of I-10.

The majority of the coastline received Cat 3 surge, and the area receiving this level of surge covered a wide range that was unprecedented, spanning the entire MS coastline, and reaching inland a considerable distance along all but a few miles close to the AL border. The area receiving Cat 1 and 2 level of surge was even more extensive, reaching completely to the northern Jackson County border, in eastern MS, and into AL, crossing Mobile Bay.
Last edited by Margie on Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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#155 Postby f5 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:20 pm

there was a report that point henderson had a 41 ft surge i'm not sure about it but that sounds close to the world record of 43 ft set in Austrauliain from a cyclone back in 1899
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#156 Postby Margie » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:30 pm

f5 wrote:there was a report that point henderson had a 41 ft surge i'm not sure about it but that sounds close to the world record of 43 ft set in Austrauliain from a cyclone back in 1899


That is very unlikely. Point Henderson received about 23-24 feet of surge, but because it was on the coast, it would have received waves of significant height on top of the surge. The height of the surge plus waves could easily have topped 41 feet at some point in time. However to quote that number as a surge number is incorrect. Also waves of significant height would not have travelled far inland, although waves of say three feet in height could probably have been seen some distance in. Remember that on top of all of the water would likely be several feet of debris. Also remember that at the shore, almost as soon as the surge comes in, it starts draining out again. In areas like Lakeshore, SE of Waveland, this process was undoubtably facilitated by the strong winds on the tail side of the eyewall, as there was not even a debris field left right along the shoreline in that location.
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#157 Postby Normandy » Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:30 pm

Are you still arguing the fact that MS didnt recieve a 35 foot surge?
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#158 Postby HurricaneBill » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:49 am

Normandy wrote:Are you still arguing the fact that MS didnt recieve a 35 foot surge?


Yep, she's still going.
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#159 Postby cycloneye » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:22 pm

Ok folks let's take it easy here and not go into very heated discussions between members.Let's keep reading the reports as they become available and posted at this thread and all can comment about them in a calm manner not in heated discussions that will not go anywhere.

Merry Christmas to all.
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#160 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:59 pm

there was no evidence of a 35 foot surge and the NHC report indicated as such. We had a surge between 25 and 30 feet. However, due to the speed of the hurricane and the shallowness of the GOM, the long waves that were generated when the storm was a cat 5, reached the coast near the time of the landfall, creating higher water level rises than the actual storm surge. Ths, surge plus long waves, may have been 35-40 feet
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