Hello to El Nino? SOI falling bigtime,Kelvin Wave spreading

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cycloneye
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#21 Postby cycloneye » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:26 pm

MGC wrote:I like to use the data on the CPC website. SST in the Nino 3.4 regions has been cooling the past few weeks. SST in the Nino 1.2 region have warmed some but are still slightly below normal. Do I think an El Nino is in the cards this hurricane season? It don't look like it.....MGC


That is why this data from the Australian Bureau of Meterology is not conclusive.It is better to see more data come out to then make a more concrete anaylisis.But I posted it as it is information distint from what we are seeing at the grafics and at the same time to get some input from the experts.
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#22 Postby Scorpion » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:57 pm

Hopefully its not too strong to make 2005 look like 97. That was just an awful season.
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#23 Postby AussieMark » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:00 pm

just one storm developed during the Climatology peak of the season that year.

it was the only storm to develop from a tropical wave that year also.

very drab

Eastern Pacific had their share of excitement

remember Hurricanes Guillermo and Linda
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#24 Postby James » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:15 pm

Would I be right in thinking that an El Nino of that magnitude would be very unlikely to form this year? I know that the 1997 El Nino formed in just a few moths, but surely events of that magnitude do not occur too often? If I am wrong, please correct me on this.

Hey, tropicalweatherwatcher, as well as those storms, remember the production line in the W. Pacific that put out three 160kt supertyphoons in about a fortnight?
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#25 Postby AussieMark » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:47 pm

yeah

Keith, Joan and Paka

I think it was

and the high frequency of Central Pacific Typhoons was amazing also.

Also the 1997 El Nino was the strongest in 100 years
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#26 Postby vacanechaser » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:30 pm

Here is a quick little blurrb from JB.

"SOI has at least 5 more neg days to it but the strong bias to negative will let up over the weekend."

Not sure what he is seeing, but I due know reading his posts a week or so back he mentioned it could and would "go into the tank" in about a week.. Well Daily contributor to SOI calculation: -51.39

is pretty deep in the tank....
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#27 Postby MWatkins » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:59 pm

The main ideas I think are in play are:

1. The SOI going negative for a short term is no big deal...we are entering the portion of the season that is hardest to read...patience.

2. A Westerly Wind Burst (WWB) is no reason to start running for the hills screaming El Nino is coming. They happen. We need to watch this one and see if there are any significant subsequent events.

3. WWB's are thought to propogate along the 29 degree isotherm (29C SST temps) which currently reach only to the date line. The propspect of a 1997 type event wiping out the 2005 Atlantic season is not at all likely. The prospect of Nino continuing still remains small...

MW
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#28 Postby HurricaneBill » Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:39 am

Plus, an El Nino doesn't always mean a wiped out season.

Remember 1969?

Although I'm still puzzled by that. If there was a moderate El Nino, why was the Atlantic still so active?
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#29 Postby Derek Ortt » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:39 am

there was no network of obs until TOGA in 1985

some interpolation had to be made for all pre 1985 obs based upon sporadic ship reports
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#30 Postby cycloneye » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:45 am


COMMENTARY:

The tropical Pacific has continued to gradually cool over the past month, particularly in western areas where the positive anomalies had been strongest. The current situation is therefore neutral. A majority of computer forecast models in the table above predict neutral conditions in the tropical Pacific in both July and October 2005. However, most models will not have factored into their calculations a strong westerly wind burst in February that has produced +5°C anomalies on the thermocline around the dateline. A down-welling Kelvin wave will propagate these anomalies to the east during the next two to three months.

The POAMA model, run at the Bureau of Meteorology, generates a new forecast every day for the following eight months based on the latest observations. The mean of the most recent ensemble of POAMA model runs suggest that central to eastern equatorial Pacific (NINO3) temperatures will increase steadily during the southern autumn and winter, but remain below the 0.8°C El Niño threshold up until at least October. So POAMA is not indicating warming in the Pacific to the same level as it did a month ago, but this may be due to the fact that it has the initial conditions about 0.5°C cooler than reality. The frequency of POAMA model runs persisting in the neutral range is in the majority for each month up to and including October.

From the 30 runs of POAMA between 24th January and 22nd February, the distribution of NINO3 temperature anomalies averaged over JULY is as follows:
–0.8°C to zero: 0% (Neutral)
zero to +0.8°C: 68% (Neutral)
above +0.8°C: 32% (Warm)

And similarly for OCTOBER the results are:
–0.8°C to zero: 12% (Neutral)
zero to +0.8°C: 52% (Neutral)
above +0.8°C: 36% (Warm)

Similar data for other months can be accessed by following the "POAMA" link in the table above. Of the eleven remaining international models, three reach warm (El Niño) conditions sometime between March and May. Overall, a majority (9 to 3) of the models favour neutral conditions in five months' time, and also in eight months' time (6 to 1) with the one in this case being cool.


The models for ENSO update came out today and they haved not catched up with the latest WWB burst.But let's see if that burst is strong enough to trigger a warm episode of el nino although as Mike said not of the dimensions of the 1997 one by any means.
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#31 Postby Stormsfury » Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:21 am

HurricaneBill wrote:Plus, an El Nino doesn't always mean a wiped out season.

Remember 1969?

Although I'm still puzzled by that. If there was a moderate El Nino, why was the Atlantic still so active?


ATL signal that year was so overwhelming, even moderate El Niño conditions could not squelch the season ... That year was the last year of the last ABV normal ATL THC (thermaline circulation) along with a very favorable pattern conducive to excessive ATL TC development.

SF
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#32 Postby weatherwindow » Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:03 pm

my read, a meld of climatology and the recent trends, is still neutral trending to marginally cool during the aug-oct period. short term numbers may be somewhat confusing but the repetition of a significant warming so closely after the events of 97,02, and late 04 would seem unlikely. the last significant occurred 98-99. the trend during the active phase of the ATC is toward fewer, less extended warm episodes with a tendency toward more and extended cool episodes(at least per gray). so my vote is for a gradual slippage toward cool conditions peaking in a significant la nina during the 06 trop season.....rich
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#33 Postby weatherwindow » Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:06 pm

edit previous.....last significant cool event occurred 98-98.....rich
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#34 Postby James » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:01 pm

Image

As a point of interest, the cold pool of water off of S. America is looking well established. It even seems to be expanding. I just mention it out of interest.
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#35 Postby wxman57 » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:27 pm

Here's another shot of the Pacific SST anomaly. That cold pool is definitely expanding westward and getting colder.

<img src="https://www.fnmoc.navy.mil/products/NCODA/US058VMET-GIFwxg.NCODA.glbl_sstanomaly.gif">
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#36 Postby James » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:53 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but what kind of implications could this cold pool have if it continues to expand and maintains itself? I know that there is a good chance that it won't, since I believe that there was another such pool of water like that about a year ago.

Image

It wasn't as pronounced or as organised, but it was there. Does anyone have any thoughts?
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#37 Postby MWatkins » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:59 pm

I think it will serve to block the much-discussed Westerly Wind Burst and the assoiated Kelvin wave...if it stays in place we'll likely see another neutral season...

MW
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#38 Postby depotoo » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:20 am

mike - can you explain for the dummy here - will it effect the huuricane season coming up? and if so how? thanks!
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#39 Postby AussieMark » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:42 am

my understanding is if a El Nino fails to happen then u squash any ideas of a inactive hurricane season
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#40 Postby vacanechaser » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:54 pm

tropicalweatherwatcher wrote:my understanding is if a El Nino fails to happen then u squash any ideas of a inactive hurricane season


Good point.. That would certainly not stop an active season.. If it stays neutral could and I say "could" see another season in terms of numbers as we saw last year. Of course other factors have to come into play. But, what if we saw a pretty good La Nina form, could be possibly see a season like '01 - '02 .. plenty of storms in MDR but nothing making landfall??


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