Judge restricts NOAA hurricane hunter jet.

[ericinmia]

I think this is bad on this basis:

The union is making it IMPOSSIBLE to fly the plane into the core. Under any circumstances... What if something comes along that gives good reason for life or death decisions that we need to fly into the core? We won't be able to with this aircraft... To change this deicision will also takes months to years of argumentative beurocracy.

It isn't like we are taking a Delta air lines pilot and telling him to fly into a hurricane. These pilots KNEW the risks and job descriptions when they applied, and decided to fly missions. It isn't the safest job, but they choose it. Don't change the job description because the workers feel that its 'too hard', 'too dangerous'.

My opinion of course.

Plus I wouldn't bet on getting a new radar ANYTIME soon. Look how long this one was taking to build/plan/implement. It is a SHAME to drop that... which especially in situations like WILMA last year, we could have had a very nice set of data on that late night flight that picked up the Cat5 winds. More data we have, the better forecasting becomes.

[SouthFloridawx]

But seriously though we are going to be fine with the Airforce performing those observations.

USAF High Density Observations
Storm Name: WILMA (24L)
Mission Number: 07
Flight ID: AF308
Flt Data Number: 34
Latest Recon Position: 221 mi NNE of Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua

01: 06:08:00; 16.9°N 82°W; PA: 10003ft; D-Val: -341 ft; Wnd: SW (216°) @ 68mph (Max: 71mph); T: 53F; D: 53F; Radar Alt: 9833ft
02: 06:08:30; 16.9°N 82.1°W; PA: 10020ft; D-Val: -417 ft; Wnd: SW (215°) @ 81mph (Max: 85mph); T: 52F; D: 52F; Radar Alt: 9770ft
03: 06:09:00; 16.9°N 82.1°W; PA: 10016ft; D-Val: -538 ft; Wnd: SW (214°) @ 96mph (Max: 103mph); T: 50F; D: 50F; Radar Alt: 9649ft
04: 06:09:30; 16.9°N 82.1°W; PA: 9993ft; D-Val: -741 ft; Wnd: SSW (213°) @ 120mph (Max: 129mph); T: 53F; D: 53F; Radar Alt: 9423ft
05: 06:10:00; 16.9°N 82.1°W; PA: 10033ft; D-Val: -1109 ft; Wnd: SSW (206°) @ 152mph (Max: 165mph); T: 51F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 9091ft
06: 06:10:30; 17°N 82.2°W; PA: 10095ft; D-Val: -1942 ft; Wnd: SSW (201°) @ 182mph (Max: 194mph); T: 51F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 8320ft
07: 06:11:00; 17°N 82.2°W; PA: 9849ft; D-Val: -2828 ft; Wnd: SSW (197°) @ 62mph (Max: 119mph); T: 69F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 7185ft
08: 06:11:30; 17°N 82.2°W; PA: 10043ft; D-Val: -2858 ft; Wnd: N (****°) @ ****mph (Max: ****mph); T: 73F; D: 52F; Radar Alt: 7346ft
09: 06:12:00; 17°N 82.2°W; PA: 9961ft; D-Val: -2733 ft; Wnd: N (353°) @ 67mph (Max: 113mph); T: 65F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 7395ft
10: 06:12:30; 17°N 82.3°W; PA: 10079ft; D-Val: -2037 ft; Wnd: N (352°) @ 183mph (Max: 185mph); T: 51F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 8209ft
11: 06:13:00; 17°N 82.3°W; PA: 9993ft; D-Val: -1857 ft; Wnd: N (352°) @ 183mph (Max: 189mph); T: 51F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 8304ft
12: 06:13:30; 17°N 82.3°W; PA: 9977ft; D-Val: -1457 ft; Wnd: N (1°) @ 174mph (Max: 182mph); T: 51F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 8688ft
13: 06:14:00; 17°N 82.3°W; PA: 10036ft; D-Val: -1148 ft; Wnd: N (10°) @ 152mph (Max: 158mph); T: 51F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 9058ft
14: 06:14:30; 17°N 82.3°W; PA: 9967ft; D-Val: -974 ft; Wnd: NNE (17°) @ 138mph (Max: 143mph); T: 50F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 9160ft
15: 06:15:00; 17°N 82.3°W; PA: 10010ft; D-Val: -807 ft; Wnd: NNE (21°) @ 124mph (Max: 130mph); T: 51F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 9373ft
16: 06:15:30; 17°N 82.3°W; PA: 10026ft; D-Val: -663 ft; Wnd: NNE (27°) @ 111mph (Max: 114mph); T: 50F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 9534ft
17: 06:16:00; 17.1°N 82.3°W; PA: 9987ft; D-Val: -541 ft; Wnd: NNE (30°) @ 98mph (Max: 101mph); T: 48F; D: ****; Radar Alt: 9616ft
18: 06:16:30; 17.1°N 82.4°W; PA: 10007ft; D-Val: -436 ft; Wnd: NNE (30°) @ 89mph (Max: 91mph); T: 53F; D: 53F; Radar Alt: 9744ft
19: 06:17:00; 17.1°N 82.4°W; PA: 10003ft; D-Val: -364 ft; Wnd: NNE (31°) @ 81mph (Max: 82mph); T: 55F; D: 53F; Radar Alt: 9813ft
20: 06:17:30; 17.1°N 82.4°W; PA: 10007ft; D-Val: -312 ft; Wnd: NE (34°) @ 73mph (Max: 75mph); T: 55F; D: 52F; Radar Alt: 9869ft
Note: **** means data accuracy was suspect

[Thunder44]

I think the union is looking out for the safety of the flight crew first. It will be great to get more info on hurricanes if their fly into the core, but they lives aren't worth the sacrifice. It's already risky without going into the core of hurricanes, why put them in more danger when it's really not that necessary.

[camilletider]

I think Unions once had an important place in our society as business has never cared for the safety and well-being of the average employee at least for the most part. But like everything in our country now there just can be no balance and so now unions are making many of the issues having to do with labor a joke and all of us are loosing as more and more of our most important industries and services are just saying the heck with it and going overseas. No one says anything when such lunacy as we are seeing here takes place, prefering to accept the spin of the simpletons instead of standing up to such non-sense and saying collectively as a people that we have had enough. Somehow some observers assume that as hard as the battle was to get the jet to start with, that those in charge are going to put pilots in danger and are somehow benefitting in the longrun by outside intervention making the decisions as to what testflights and intruments will be used. I really expected better by some of the superbly intelligent minds on this board but, oh well.

[timeflow]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... c-130j.htm

I was thinking, why Gulf Stream IV for risky penetration missions, what about new modified C-130's? So I did a web search and found this link.

WC-130J is described in this report as the replacement for a fleet of WC-130H-model aircraft (valued at $62.9 million).

Sounds great, until the last few paragraphs...

From the report:

"Four major issues confront the weather reconnaissance aircraft according to the DOT&E. The radar cannot perform the hurricane reconnaissancemission, continuous satellite communication is not achieved, there is propeller delamination, and there is excessive vibration in the auxiliary crew member’s station.

The low-power color radar was designed as a weather avoidance radar, but it was installed in the WC-130J to perform the weather penetration mission. The radar does not support operational requirements for the weather mission. The program office has developed a plan to correct this deficiency. Additional software modification tests were planned for late 2003 (storm season), but testing was not accomplished due to software deficiencies. Hardware modifications will be tested approximately 26 months after the contract is awarded. Initial operational capability may be no sooner than FY06. Since the WC-130J cannot perform its primary mission, the correction of this deficiency is critical. The secondary impact is that the ten older WC-130H models that currently perform the mission were to be converted to aerial refueling tankers and transferred to Air Combat Command. That will not occur until the WC-130J is fully operational.

A proposed fix to the propeller delamination problem has been installed on test aircraft. Data are currently being collected by the Air Force Reserves. The fix must be tested in a hurricane environment."

[Dean4Storms]

Respect? I respect your opinion on the matter and I understand the concerns. I happen to disagree with the level of danger. I am a licensed pilot and have flown through alot of turbulence, it is a part of flying. I did not attack your opinion on the story, you have a right to that opinion. Too bad you are not diverse enough to respect anyone else's opinion on the story.

[JPmia]

I think Unions once had an important place in our society as business has never cared for the safety and well-being of the average employee at least for the most part. But like everything in our country now there just can be no balance and so now unions are making many of the issues having to do with labor a joke and all of us are loosing as more and more of our most important industries and services are just saying the heck with it and going overseas. No one says anything when such lunacy as we are seeing here takes place, prefering to accept the spin of the simpletons instead of standing up to such non-sense and saying collectively as a people that we have had enough. Somehow some observers assume that as hard as the battle was to get the jet to start with, that those in charge are going to put pilots in danger and are somehow benefitting in the longrun by outside intervention making the decisions as to what testflights and intruments will be used. I really expected better by some of the superbly intelligent minds on this board but, oh well.

I don't think the point of the article was about the efficacy of unions in today's society! Why do issues on this board become so politicized? You are entitled to your opinion and I truly respect that, but most of us come to this board to discuss tropics and tropical related discussions...not political and economic ideology. Thanks, but no thanks.

[SouthFloridawx]

Thanks timeflow

[Dean4Storms]

I think Unions once had an important place in our society as business has never cared for the safety and well-being of the average employee at least for the most part. But like everything in our country now there just can be no balance and so now unions are making many of the issues having to do with labor a joke and all of us are loosing as more and more of our most important industries and services are just saying the heck with it and going overseas. No one says anything when such lunacy as we are seeing here takes place, prefering to accept the spin of the simpletons instead of standing up to such non-sense and saying collectively as a people that we have had enough. Somehow some observers assume that as hard as the battle was to get the jet to start with, that those in charge are going to put pilots in danger and are somehow benefitting in the longrun by outside intervention making the decisions as to what testflights and intruments will be used. I really expected better by some of the superbly intelligent minds on this board but, oh well.

Agree wholeheartedly. As if NOAA was ignorant of any turbulence that may be encountered and want to risk not only the plane but the people on board as well. I've flown into more turbulence with a single engine Piper with only 3000 ft. between me and the dirt than what they would encounter at 40,000ft flying through overcast in a Gulfstream IV Jet with the latest in Radar and avionics!!

"although in all these cases the aircraft was careful to avoid penetrating thunderstorms, and just flew through the high cirrus clouds of the Central Dense Overcast (CDO). Nevertheless, the union argued that such flights were too dangerous, and collected little valuable data."


Commercial Airliners do as much!

Some people read only one side of a story and take it as Gospel, the intelligent look at both sides. It is easy to do when your emotions are attacked by a claim that it is dangerous to the personnel involved. Uh, some of the TS heights and shear in the banding TS around the periphery of a Hurricane can be just as turbulent if not worse, especially in the NE quadrant! Any seasoned pilot will tell you that the most dangerous time in an aircraft is when you are taking off, on approach or landing an aircraft, PERIOD! Out of the THOUSANDS of planes in our skies at any time, how many do you remember falling out of the sky and crashing from a TS and how many from the process of either landing or taking off?????

[terstorm1012]

I think people are getting heated over issues not really related because they're ignoring the good that's come out of it. If the new radar was supposed to be too heavy to let the plane attain its high altitude and this plane was purchased for the purpose of sampling the upper atmosphere, then it looks like the ruling will allow the plane to continue to do its original mission, which was (repeating) sampling the high upper atmosphere ABOVE the storms ahead and behind it. means better knowledge of the winds steering the storms, meaning better model data, meaning better models, meaning better predictions.

i'm pretty sure the new radar can go on a larger plane already flown by the Air Force, all of which I'd imagine need upgrading anyway.

[Dean4Storms]

I think people are getting heated over issues not really related because they're ignoring the good that's come out of it. If the new radar was supposed to be too heavy to let the plane attain its high altitude and this plane was purchased for the purpose of sampling the upper atmosphere, then it looks like the ruling will allow the plane to continue to do its original mission, which was (repeating) sampling the high upper atmosphere ABOVE the storms ahead and behind it. means better knowledge of the winds steering the storms, meaning better model data, meaning better models, meaning better predictions.

i'm pretty sure the new radar can go on a larger plane already flown by the Air Force, all of which I'd imagine need upgrading anyway.

This is true terstorm, but I myself have no personal knowledge of this claim over the radar, nor did I argue it. I'm not saying that you thought I did. Just wanting to clarify my position in this topic. The plaintiff in this suit did not claim this to be the reason behind the lawsuit, the claim was that this one part of the mission was too dangerous. That I argue.

[camilletider]

I think Unions once had an important place in our society as business has never cared for the safety and well-being of the average employee at least for the most part. But like everything in our country now there just can be no balance and so now unions are making many of the issues having to do with labor a joke and all of us are loosing as more and more of our most important industries and services are just saying the heck with it and going overseas. No one says anything when such lunacy as we are seeing here takes place, prefering to accept the spin of the simpletons instead of standing up to such non-sense and saying collectively as a people that we have had enough. Somehow some observers assume that as hard as the battle was to get the jet to start with, that those in charge are going to put pilots in danger and are somehow benefitting in the longrun by outside intervention making the decisions as to what testflights and intruments will be used. I really expected better by some of the superbly intelligent minds on this board but, oh well.

I don't think the point of the article was about the efficacy of unions in today's society! Why do issues on this board become so politicized? You are entitled to your opinion and I truly respect that, but most of us come to this board to discuss tropics and tropical related discussions...not political and economic ideology. Thanks, but no thanks.

No, the topic was not about the efficacy of unions in todays society. It did seem to however be a topic about more of the mickey mouse crap that is weighing down a very important segment of our scientific community. It is up to us as a population to somehow find our voice of dissent, within a balanced contest, when such important things are at stake instead of passively letting the worst offenses to be smoothed over. The limitations of these boards do not always allow for the qualification and explaining of every point and intention so my post probably didn't come across quite like I would have liked it to. Surprisingly enough, I am by no means a lover of arguments. I too would LOVE to just enjoy whatever the topic is but after years of observation it has become apparent that very few are so riddled with politization as tropical meteorology as modeled by our country. If I have a loyalty and emotion tied to the topic it certainly is in no small part support and admiration for the scientists and workers who have taken on this incredible responsibility and I resent the very excessive obstacles they are made to hurdle as simply beyond belief or any logic. Look at how many directors of the NHC have left for less difficult jobs because of the stupidity of trying to achieve so much while having to fight for the most obvious needs. The man that directed the HRD through many of the most reknown storms and formulated such theories as concentric eye walls left the division he had headed up for years in disgust over trying to get funds to proper research. Then we see the mess Max Mayfield and others have to endure and so it bothers me when I see crap like the above.

We all have to be aware of the big picture sometimes if we want to keep even what we have. What do we do if all that mess about Accuweather trying to get their slimy mits on the data we now obtain mostly for free? If you can discuss hurricanes and the tropics, beyond the Weather Channel and TV pseudoscience, for very long without politics and economics coming into virtually every part, then my hat is off to you.

[Jim Cantore]

ridiculous, how many of these things have crashed?