Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

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Stephanie
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#21 Postby Stephanie » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:56 pm

Jevo wrote:
superg77 wrote:We need more satellites not less. We need more funding for the NHC and hurricane research not less. Proenza was right for sticking up for more research and for more data. Sticking up for a QUIKSCAT replacement was starting with the science. Why would we ever want less data or settle for less? The answer is always more, more, more data. The more data and funding we have the more we can learn about hurricanes. Settling for less is dumb. This is allowing the government to reduce science. We should never accept that. We also need all the hurricane information and data made public -- every single bit of it -- not taken away as MWatkins suggests. We are the ones paying for it.


Im having trouble following your point here... I dont see one time mike insisted that we reduce NHC funding... However he did put forth a much better argument backed by data and reasearch..... Weheras you are verball vomiting your beliefs and ideas... with nothing to back them.... I assure you Mike has forgotten more about Science and weather than you have learned.. I see you are new so maybe its time to learn which of the posters know what they are talking about.. As you can see others have posed their points of view as questions allowing comment....

JMHO


It seems that you're already showing him. :roll:

Watch your tone please. He's entitled to his opinion.
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#22 Postby MWatkins » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:01 pm

superg77 wrote:We need more satellites not less. We need more funding for the NHC and hurricane research not less. Proenza was right for sticking up for more research and for more data. Sticking up for a QUIKSCAT replacement was starting with the science. Why would we ever want less data or settle for less? The answer is always more, more, more data. The more data and funding we have the more we can learn about hurricanes. Settling for less is dumb. This is allowing the government to reduce science. We should never accept that. We also need all the hurricane information and data made public -- every single bit of it -- not taken away as MWatkins suggests. We are the ones paying for it.


Entirely not my point at all. I am pro QUIKSCAT...I have and will be a huge advocate for it's replacement. There two points that are getting missed I think:

1. Watch and warning areas are not dependent on QUIKSCAT at all because recon is available. Hence, there is no need to expand watch/warning areas as Proenza asserted without it.

2. The study suggesting forecast accuracy will go down by 16% was not even about NHC forecasts...it was an indirect reference to GFS skill...and the study wasn't even complete at the time he cited it.

QUIKSCAT is good. Proenza's facts about QUIKSCAT were not.

MW
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#23 Postby superg77 » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:09 pm

MWatkins wrote:
superg77 wrote:We need more satellites not less. We need more funding for the NHC and hurricane research not less. Proenza was right for sticking up for more research and for more data. Sticking up for a QUIKSCAT replacement was starting with the science. Why would we ever want less data or settle for less? The answer is always more, more, more data. The more data and funding we have the more we can learn about hurricanes. Settling for less is dumb. This is allowing the government to reduce science. We should never accept that. We also need all the hurricane information and data made public -- every single bit of it -- not taken away as MWatkins suggests. We are the ones paying for it.


Entirely not my point at all. I am pro QUIKSCAT...I have and will be a huge advocate for it's replacement. There two points that are getting missed I think:

1. Watch and warning areas are not dependent on QUIKSCAT at all because recon is available. Hence, there is no need to expand watch/warning areas as Proenza asserted without it.

2. The study suggesting forecast accuracy will go down by 16% was not even about NHC forecasts...it was an indirect reference to GFS skill...and the study wasn't even complete at the time he cited it.

QUIKSCAT is good. Proenza's facts about QUIKSCAT were not.

MW


I see now. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Glad you are Pro QUIKSCAT! :-D Hopefully the whole NHC Proenza ordeal won't lessen our chances of getting a replacement satellite in the future.
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#24 Postby Derek Ortt » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:12 pm

What I would like to see is research into the development of the technology to place these microwave sensors on our geostationar satellites, so we have a regular data stream, not this twice daily where we are hoping that the pass does not miss
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#25 Postby tolakram » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:55 pm

In my opinion the primary concern was the questionable science of the QuikScat argument plus the fact that he made it sound like critical landfall forecasts would get worse, aka put the public in more danger, and he did not recant any of those incorrect statements even after he was apparently confronted by some of the staff.

So how many people, or congressmen, now think it's more important to replace a satellite than provide more money for reconnaissance missions? That, in my opinion, is the real damage.
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#26 Postby MWatkins » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:22 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:What I would like to see is research into the development of the technology to place these microwave sensors on our geostationar satellites, so we have a regular data stream, not this twice daily where we are hoping that the pass does not miss


No kidding....there are few things more frustrating in the weather world than a partial QSCAT pass over something that sure looks like a depression...and needs just one more piece of evidence to seal the deal...

Then the SW portion is missed by the swath.

Instead of orbiting the earth it would be great if the scatterometer scanned the deep tropics from end to end all day...from the geostationary satellite.

But I am sure that would cost 100 million billion dollars...

MW
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#27 Postby Jevo » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:32 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Jevo wrote:
superg77 wrote:We need more satellites not less. We need more funding for the NHC and hurricane research not less. Proenza was right for sticking up for more research and for more data. Sticking up for a QUIKSCAT replacement was starting with the science. Why would we ever want less data or settle for less? The answer is always more, more, more data. The more data and funding we have the more we can learn about hurricanes. Settling for less is dumb. This is allowing the government to reduce science. We should never accept that. We also need all the hurricane information and data made public -- every single bit of it -- not taken away as MWatkins suggests. We are the ones paying for it.


Im having trouble following your point here... I dont see one time mike insisted that we reduce NHC funding... However he did put forth a much better argument backed by data and reasearch..... Weheras you are verball vomiting your beliefs and ideas... with nothing to back them.... I assure you Mike has forgotten more about Science and weather than you have learned.. I see you are new so maybe its time to learn which of the posters know what they are talking about.. As you can see others have posed their points of view as questions allowing comment....

JMHO


It seems that you're already showing him. :roll:

Watch your tone please. He's entitled to his opinion.


Its not a hurricane season unless Im getting scolded by S2K Mods

The season has officially begun :cheesy:
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#28 Postby jasons2k » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:51 am

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4968683.html

July 15, 2007, 4:45AM
Opinions vary on satellite's use as a tool for forecasting
Some at NOAA says it's vital for storm tracking, while others say that's a stretch
By ERIC BERGER
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Get smart with SciGuy Ousted National Hurricane Center director Bill Proenza never had a reputation for holding his tongue.

Last week, following a firestorm that erupted when he questioned his bosses' spending priorities and a subsequent staff revolt, he was placed on leave.

What may ultimately have cost him his job, however, was not a lack of political acumen but rather the science of hurricanes and satellites.

Shortly after becoming the hurricane center's director in January, Proenza began publicly beseeching his National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration superiors for a replacement to the aging QuikSCAT satellite. If lost, he warned, his forecasters would lose a key tool to predict the path of land-falling storms.

Proenza gained support from politicians and editorial boards. But some scientists — including senior forecasters at the National Hurricane Center — said Proenza had vastly overstated the effect of the satellite's loss. One, Lixion Avila, compared it to driving a BMW with cloth rather than leather seats.

But did Proenza really stretch credibility? Are lives really at stake?

Scientific evidence supports arguments on both sides.


Two benefits
Launched in 1999, NASA's Quick Scatterometer satellite employs a specialized radar that takes 400,000 daily measurements of wind speeds and directions, covering 90 percent of the Earth's surface.

The satellite benefits hurricane forecasters in two ways: by improving the identification of tropical disturbances well out to sea as they begin to develop circular winds, and by adding data to sophisticated computer models that forecast hurricane tracks.

The first application becomes considerably less important to forecasters as a storm nears land. Combined with reconnaissance data, observations from ocean buoys, ships and Caribbean islands give a much clearer picture of a tropical system, said Chris Hebert, a hurricane specialist with Houston-based ImpactWeather, a private forecasting service.

"QuikSCAT data are generally ignored by operational forecasters when other, more reliable and more frequently updated observations become available," he said.

More debatable is the value of QuikSCAT data in several computer models upon which forecasters rely. There have been essentially three scientific inquiries into whether QuikSCAT data benefit the models:

• Robert Atlas, director of NOAA's Atlantic Oceanographic and Meteorological Laboratory, has published two peer-reviewed studies and concludes the loss of QuikSCAT data would harm hurricane track forecasting, in some cases severely. For example, he found the 60-hour forecast for Hurricane Cindy (1999) with QuikSCAT data was better than the 24-hour forecast without the satellite data.
• In an unpublished study of nearly 300 tropical systems, James Goerss and Timothy Hogan of the Naval Research Laboratory found that QuikSCAT improved the one-day forecast of the Navy's NOGAPS model by 2.5 percent but had no effect on longer forecasts.
• And in a study conducted by NOAA scientist James Jung and others, accepted for publication later this year in a peer-reviewed journal, QuikSCAT improved a key model's two-day forecast by 10 percent and the three-day forecast by 16 percent.
It was this last study that Proenza relied upon to say QuikSCAT is a life-saving tool for hurricane forecasters.


'A degradation' of accuracy
While standing behind his work, Jung acknowledged in an interview that his sample of 25 storms was relatively small, however, and that the effect of satellite data could vary from year to year. "In this study, there is no way to account for yearly variability, which I feel is significant," Jung said.

Goerss also defended his work but said the results applied to the NOGAPS model only and are not generalizable to other models used by the hurricane center.

Among the three researchers, only Atlas said the scientific results point toward a definitive conclusion that wholly backs Proenza. "The weight of the scientific evidence is that if we lose QuikSCAT, and we don't do anything to mitigate that loss, we will have a degradation of forecast track accuracy," Atlas said.

Hurricane center staffers haven't always dismissed QuikSCAT as a forecasting tool. As recently as early June, according to a summary of a workshop on satellite wind measurements, senior hurricane specialist Richard Knabb said of QuikSCAT:

"When QuikSCAT is gone, it will be like going back seven years in tropical cyclone analysis." He later added: "Losing QuikSCAT would be like losing a limb, especially for Tropical Analysis and Forecasting Branch."

However, a month later, Knabb's colleagues, including Avila, seemed to say something different when they held a news conference in Miami and minimized the importance that satellites play in their forecasting.

Later, in an e-mail, another staffer, James Franklin, disputed Atlas' favorable assessment of the satellite.

If Proenza feels betrayed by his staffers at the National Hurricane Center, he isn't saying. Attempts to interview him for this article were unsuccessful.


A plan in place
The QuikSCAT controversy is unlikely to go away soon. On Thursday, members of Congress who oversee NOAA sent its administrator a letter seeking a large number of records relating to the decision to oust Proenza.

Among them was the chairman of the subcommittee on energy and environment, Rep. Nick Lampson, D-Texas.

NOAA, the hurricane center's parent organization, has come down squarely in favor of Franklin and the senior forecasters. During a hearing before the Senate Commerce Committee last week, NOAA assistant administrator Mary Ellen Kicza essentially repeated Franklin's assessment.

She also said the agency has a plan if QuikSCAT fails. It could use two satellites, including one recently launched by Europe, to cover about 60 percent of QuikSCAT's area and increase the use of reconnaissance flights.

Proenza's supporters, including Atlas, noted that such a contingency plan wasn't developed until after the former hurricane center director began publicly agitating for a satellite replacement.

As for the politicians who initially backed Proenza's call for a new satellite, they no longer appear inclined to push for an immediate replacement. Instead, they seem likely to follow NOAA's plan of developing a version that can detect wind speeds above Category 1 hurricane status, which is the limit for the current satellite.

And, despite earlier fears among some forecasters, members of Congress will no longer consider raiding Hurricane Hunter funds for a satellite replacement.

"No, we are not going to rob Peter to pay Paul," said Rep. Ron Klein, D-Fla.

eric.berger@chron.com
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#29 Postby x-y-no » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:00 am

Derek Ortt wrote:What I would like to see is research into the development of the technology to place these microwave sensors on our geostationar satellites, so we have a regular data stream, not this twice daily where we are hoping that the pass does not miss


That would be great, but I wonder what kind of resolution would be possible. That's a huge difference in altitude - 497 miles for QUIKSCAT, 22,240 miles for geostationary.
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#30 Postby x-y-no » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:01 am

And, despite earlier fears among some forecasters, members of Congress will no longer consider raiding Hurricane Hunter funds for a satellite replacement.

"No, we are not going to rob Peter to pay Paul," said Rep. Ron Klein, D-Fla.


Thank God, some sanity appears to be returning. 8-)
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#31 Postby TampaSteve » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:29 am

Look, I don't care who the director of the NHC is, as long as they have the best tools and best data available to get the job done...and that job is saving lives, not playing politics.
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Re: Leave the Science to the Scientists at the NHC

#32 Postby Frank2 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:45 am

How soon we forget - on April 26, 1986, a launch from Cape Canaveral AFB ended in the destruction of the GOES-G satellite:

http://space.skyrocket.de/

I was still with the HRD at the time, and, remember seeing this launch - it was a Saturday evening, and, the local ABC affiliate thought it'd be nice to show the first live launch of a rocket since the Challenger disaster, just two days short of three months earlier.

Sadly, I recall that about one minute into the launch (almost the same amount of time as Challenger), the rocket went out of control and was destroyed - along with the NOAA GOES-G weather satellite.

I seem to recall that Dr. Sheets (then NHC's Director) was asked for a comment concerning the loss of this satellite just before hurricane season, but, if I remember correctly, he said something similar to what can be done - an accident is an accident - we will do our best with what we have...

In a case like that, Dr. Sheets could have easily gotten very upset and blamed this one and that one, but, knew that it wouldn't help the situation - again, it all depends on how comments are made...

Frank
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