NHC News Item

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jasons2k
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#221 Postby jasons2k » Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:38 pm

There was another article in the Herald tonight with some quotes from Miles Lawrence:

http://www.miamiherald.com/416/story/163016.html

Forecasters: Dispute won't blow us off course
BY MARTIN MERZER
mmerzer@MiamiHerald.com
With gales of dissent raging through the National Hurricane Center and its embattled director questioning scientific and budgetary resources, many South Floridians and residents of other vulnerable areas pondered three key questions Friday:

If a hurricane threatened today, how well could forecasters perform their duties in an environment of increasing mutiny and turmoil? Do they have a full array of instruments? And is the public being protected?

The answers are mostly -- but not entirely -- reassuring.

''We'll do our best,'' said senior forecaster James Franklin, a reluctant leader of the staff insurrection that seeks the ouster of director Bill Proenza. ``But you can't do as well when you have all these issues swirling around.''

One leading indicator of the toxic climate at the hurricane center:

Senior forecaster Rick Knabb told Proenza by email that Proenza had publicly misrepresented remarks made by Knabb during a private conversation this week, and ``I will no longer meet or talk with you in private.''

''I've never seen anything like this,'' said Miles Lawrence, who retired as a senior forecaster in 2005 after 39 years at the center.

PUBLIC ALARM

Hundreds of people contributed posts to MiamiHerald.com about the controversy. ''We in Florida need this center to operate and not become bogged down by this infighting,'' wrote one poster.

Still, Lawrence and others said the public should not be overly alarmed.

Despite the impression that might have been left by some of Proenza's comments, they said, the hurricane center has the same tools it had in prior seasons and forecasters have sufficient mental clarity to get the job done.

''They're professionals at the hurricane center; they do their jobs,'' said Hugh Willoughby, former director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Hurricane Research Division on Virginia Key.

Said Lawrence:

``In terms of the people who are there and the technology, I think they can function. But, not being there, I can't really speak to the stress that's being caused by the circus that's going on and the storm of discontent.''

Proenza defied a staff mutiny, saying Friday he would not resign but that he serves at the pleasure of his superiors in Washington and would consult with them about ''the way forward'' -- the first time he has cracked open the door to a potential departure.

''The staff here doesn't dictate who the leader is,'' Proenza told The Miami Herald on Friday, a day after nearly half his employees signed a petition demanding his resignation. ``What a dangerous precedent when we allow subordinates to dictate their leadership by signing a petition.

''In all sincerity, I need to discuss the way forward with Washington, D.C.,'' Proenza said. ``I work for the American people and I'm always prepared to provide for their greater good.''

Those superiors in Washington also have been applying pressure, last month reprimanding Proenza by letter and this week conducting a snap inspection of his operation -- a process that will resume next week.

Franklin responded by saying Proenza had ''poisoned the atmosphere'' and must leave immediately.

INSPECTORS REPORT

As Franklin spoke, the special inspection team was reporting its initial findings to Conrad C. Lautenbacher, head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

Franklin said he and his allies hope that a way will be found to oust Proenza by the end of the weekend.

''My gosh, if they haven't heard enough [in Washington], what more do they need to hear?'' Franklin said.

Proenza has raised concerns about the eventual demise of a weather satellite and a shortage of funds for research.

He has been careful to say that current capabilities have not been diminished, but many of his scientists say the drumbeat of his complaints has undermined faith in their forecasts.

In addition, vague and nonspecific suggestions have been made that Proenza is difficult to work with and, at times, has been verbally abusive to members of his staff.

COLLEGIALITY

Hurricane forecasting tends to be a collegial affair, with many opinions solicited and debated before predictions are made and warnings are posted.

Senior forecaster Richard Pasch and others have said that Proenza does not seem to embrace the team approach, an assertion Proenza and his supporters deny.

In any event, elected officials, emergency managers and the public have come to rely on the hurricane center's forecasts and credibility, especially during a decades-long period of enhanced activity that already has produced hurricanes Charley, Ivan, Katrina, Wilma and others.

Several members of Congress visited the center Friday, and some emergency managers and many members of the public expressed concern about the chaos that envelops the place.

''I really don't want the folks at the National Hurricane Center to be distracted by anything that will divert their attention from their mission to provide me with the hurricane information I need,'' said Larry Gispert, Hillborough County's emergency manager and a vice president of the 3,600-member International Association of Emergency Managers.

He said that information ``is critical to ensure that people and businesses in my county can make informed decisions impacting hundreds of thousands of people and millions of dollars of business revenue.''

EXPERTS CONFIDENT

Still, Lawrence, Willoughby and other experts outside and inside the center said the concerns seem overblown.

Franklin said he and his colleagues were up to the task, though he conceded that the soap opera was distracting.

''We're professionals and we'll get through it, and we'll get the job done to the best of our abilities,'' Franklin said.

''Having said that, what you don't want in the long run, as you get into August and September and things really get busy, is a bunch of anxious forecasters who aren't getting any sleep and who are on edge, because then maybe you don't perform as well,'' he said.

Willoughby, who now teaches at Florida International University and maintains close links with hurricane forecasters, expressed confidence that they could overcome the distractions.

''You could decapitate the hurricane center by wiping out its senior management, and the people who are left would organize themselves, there would always be somebody on the desk and they would forecast hurricanes,'' he said.

But could they think clearly and produce accurate forecasts under these extreme conditions?

''Honestly, I think so,'' Willoughby said. ``There are procedures and the reason why you have a lot of training is so, when the world turns to s---, you know what to do.''
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#222 Postby SkeetoBite » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:31 pm

Avila and Franklin say they depend on QuikScat more for intensity information than to determine a storm’s path. Avila said the satellite was like a BMW with leather seats: nice but not essential. When asked if he thought Proenza misspoke intentionally, he said: “Don’t attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity.”


Man... if I had a dollar for every time I could make that statement about folks jumping on the posts of others in a public forum...
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#223 Postby btangy » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:45 pm

Ed Rappaport will likely take over for the remainder of the hurricane season and a new director will be appointed after the season is over. I don't think they have time to do a full blown search right now. From the last search though, it seems many people with direct hurricane forecasting or research experience did not want the job. With all this chaos going on now, I'm pretty sure it's not going to attract droves of qualified candidates either.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#224 Postby Aslkahuna » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:10 am

Ed Rappaport didn't even APPLY for the position when it became vacant so why would he be willing to step into a hornet's nest now. If I were in his position I certainly wouldn't. He obviously knew enough about the other specialists to not want the job. Certainly if they do succeed in ousting Proenza, it will be difficult to find anyone who would want to work with what would be perceived as vindictive prima donnas (incidentally, going Public with interviews and petitions after an IG visit is NOT a professional way of doing things-you wait until the IG report comes out which in this case is July 20-do this in a DOD agency or in the Military and there will be mass transfers and firings). Regardless of the outcome, it's the reputation of NHC that will suffer the most.

Steve
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#225 Postby cycloneye » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:31 am

Regardless of the outcome, it's the reputation of NHC that will suffer the most.


Sadly,the damage has been done and the credibility of the National Hurricane Center has gone down to the public no matter how this episode concludes.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#226 Postby Aquawind » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:49 am

cycloneye wrote:
Regardless of the outcome, it's the reputation of NHC that will suffer the most.


Sadly,the damage has been done and the credibility of the National Hurricane Center has gone down to the public no matter how this episode concludes.


Yep, With NOAA and the NWS right behind.. Foolishness by all parties.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#227 Postby wzrgirl1 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:00 am

It won't be Rappaport as I have some inside info that he turned it down because of personal issues (He is a member at my Temple and my hubby heard this from friends of his) It wouldn't be fair of me to say what those personal issues are but trust me.....he may take over short term only.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#228 Postby philnyc » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:22 am

Aslkahuna wrote:Ed Rappaport didn't even APPLY for the position when it became vacant so why would he be willing to step into a hornet's nest now. If I were in his position I certainly wouldn't. He obviously knew enough about the other specialists to not want the job. Certainly if they do succeed in ousting Proenza, it will be difficult to find anyone who would want to work with what would be perceived as vindictive prima donnas (incidentally, going Public with interviews and petitions after an IG visit is NOT a professional way of doing things-you wait until the IG report comes out which in this case is July 20-do this in a DOD agency or in the Military and there will be mass transfers and firings). Regardless of the outcome, it's the reputation of NHC that will suffer the most.

Steve


Hi Steve,
You have hit the nail on the head. I knew there was something I liked about you from the moment we went head-to-head on the southwest monsoon. You are a smart man.
Phil
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#229 Postby ronjon » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:23 am

This airing of dirty laundry is very disturbing. As a scientist who has worked in government for 20 years, I find it extremely unprofessional of the staff to sign a petition and provide media interviews that are critical of management. There are human resource procedures for improper conduct and these need to be followed without the theatrics and brow beating. None of us know the true story so I can't pretend to judge anyones conduct. However, fair or not, it is clear that Proenza has lost the confidence of a significant number of staff. At this point, it is probably a matter of days before he steps down. I think it is very bad precedent to allow some vocal staff to dictate management of the agency. After Proenza goes, my suggestion would also be to transfer out Franklin and perhaps other scientists - not for their accusations against Proenza, but for their unprofessional manner in delivering the message.

I know some would view this as retaliation for speaking out but it is clear there are personnel issues at the staff level that replacing a director are not going to solve. It would also be a clear warning to future scientists to conduct these issues in private and not in the public sphere. The reputation of the agency has to be placed above personal problems.
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#230 Postby btangy » Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:22 am

Ed Rappaport didn't even APPLY for the position when it became vacant so why would he be willing to step into a hornet's nest now. If I were in his position I certainly wouldn't.


I agree that he won't fill the role permanently, but they will need someone to head the hurricane center if Porenza leaves while they do the search, which in all likelihood won't conclude until the hurricane season ends. The obvious choice is the deputy directory, i.e. Ed Rappaport. They obviously can't appoint someone overnight, but maybe Michael Brown is available (to the screams of all).
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Re: NHC News Item=Proenza leaves door open to go

#231 Postby x-y-no » Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:41 am

wzrgirl1 wrote:It won't be Rappaport as I have some inside info that he turned it down because of personal issues (He is a member at my Temple and my hubby heard this from friends of his) It wouldn't be fair of me to say what those personal issues are but trust me.....he may take over short term only.


That's unfortunate, since I think he would be a choice the entire staff of the center could unite behind.
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#232 Postby jasons2k » Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:19 am

Like some have stated, I am very concerned that this is about more than Quickscat and other comments made by Proenza. Something was very telling in the TV interview when Avila said "he hasn't made a hurricane forecast since the 1960's". That tells me from the very beginning, before Proenza set foot at the NHC, there was a certain level of distrust amongst the staff. In a situation like this, a small misstep can lead to lots of water-cooler talk, and before you know it, a full-blown "us against him" mutiny. With this being a very close-knit community/staff, and Proenza, the outsider, coming in, I can see this happening. That tragic thing is when things like that happen, one never gets to know what "could have been" if just given the chance.
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#233 Postby vbhoutex » Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:51 pm

jschlitz wrote:Like some have stated, I am very concerned that this is about more than Quickscat and other comments made by Proenza. Something was very telling in the TV interview when Avila said "he hasn't made a hurricane forecast since the 1960's". That tells me from the very beginning, before Proenza set foot at the NHC, there was a certain level of distrust amongst the staff. In a situation like this, a small misstep can lead to lots of water-cooler talk, and before you know it, a full-blown "us against him" mutiny. With this being a very close-knit community/staff, and Proenza, the outsider, coming in, I can see this happening. That tragic thing is when things like that happen, one never gets to know what "could have been" if just given the chance.


You are so right Jason!!!!
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Re: NHC News Item

#234 Postby miamicanes177 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:10 pm

The NHC forecasters are WAY of out line and I believe a full investigation of them is prudent. You can not have employees taking hiring and firing decisions into their own hands. This is sick. Forecasters should not run to the media and create a petition for the firing of the NHC director. All trust in the NHC has been lost and I do not believe I can continue to trust the forecasters. If Proenza is fired, the forecasters should be as well. They have poured gasoline on a small fire that could have been put out very easily had they kept their mouths shut.
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Re: NHC News Item

#235 Postby gotoman38 » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:32 pm

miamicanes177 wrote:The NHC forecasters are WAY of out line and I believe a full investigation of them is prudent. You can not have employees taking hiring and firing decisions into their own hands. This is sick. Forecasters should not run to the media and create a petition for the firing of the NHC director. All trust in the NHC has been lost and I do not believe I can continue to trust the forecasters. If Proenza is fired, the forecasters should be as well. They have poured gasoline on a small fire that could have been put out very easily had they kept their mouths shut.


I totally disagree. Scientists are a different breed and must be treated as such, similar to celebrities in terms of care and respect for extraordinary talent. When a careless manager is put in charge, a talented staff like this should and almost always will take action to correct an untenable situation.
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#236 Postby Aquawind » Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:50 pm

Well said Jason. There is alot more to the story than QScat and speaking his mind..
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Re: NHC News Item

#237 Postby Toadstool » Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:40 pm

As this keeps brewing, soon it will be time for the administration to drop the Halliburton outsourcing bomb on the NHC (probably the plan all along)...
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Re: NHC News Item

#238 Postby Aslkahuna » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:17 pm

Ronjon you are totally correct and I also agree that there should be transfers of other personnel out of NHC as well-though at the moment I can't possibly conceive of anyone in management who would want to take a chance of having some of them in his agency. Disloyalty and muntinous behavior has a habit of dirtying both sides involved in the argument and certainly proper personnel procedures (particualrly involving grievances) have to be reestablished and they can't be when you have people running to the media to air the dirty laundry.

Steve
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Re: NHC News Item

#239 Postby Toadstool » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:37 pm

Aslkahuna wrote:Ronjon you are totally correct and I also agree that there should be transfers of other personnel out of NHC as well-though at the moment I can't possibly conceive of anyone in management who would want to take a chance of having some of them in his agency. Disloyalty and muntinous behavior has a habit of dirtying both sides involved in the argument and certainly proper personnel procedures (particualrly involving grievances) have to be reestablished and they can't be when you have people running to the media to air the dirty laundry.

Steve


I agree with you and Ronjon, certainly if Proenza is forced to leave all those who signed the petition must also be transferred or forced to resign. Otherwise, it sets a terrible precedent, and trust will never be renewed for the reasons you mentioned. A good full house cleaning of management to forecasters is needed.
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#240 Postby vacanechaser » Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:32 pm

i love how some of you are hating on the forecasters, with little or no knowledge of them... an entrie group of folks making those statements and all most of you can do is hammer them with little or no knowledge of what may really be going on there... i dont know either, but i think in the time i have spent with these people, i trust what they say... sounds to me like they should have hired within... someone that knows the rutine, the people and a better working knowledge of hurricane forecasting... just my $.02


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