2022 Indicators (SSTs/SAL/MSLP/Shear/Steering/Instability) and >Day 16 Models

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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#381 Postby Shell Mound » Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:47 am

SteveM wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:
NotSparta wrote:Definitely Elsa. I remember a trade wind reversal at the equator in the Atlantic that gave extra vorticity to low lying waves and helped Elsa develop

That’s true, but did the Atlantic Niño play a role? Given that Atlantic Niños tend to cool the MDR, I am somewhat skeptical of the notion that they aid TCG.

Is that picture from a specific year? And is there a clear causal link?

No, it’s a mean illustration of Atlantic Niños in general. Atlantic Niños typically coincide with a cooler MDR vs. Atlantic Niñas.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#382 Postby SFLcane » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:01 am

You know just this past week I started to see comparisons on Twitter to this season being 2001 or some super slow year. It’s extremely annoying to see this from know Mets honestly do you think Phil K who has been in the business studying and making these forecast base his seasonal outlook based solely on mdr ssts being a bit on the cool side. There are plenty of factors that go into it. There is strong agreement from well know sources that this year could be busy so lets just let things develop and check back in June. There are still 4 months to go before the real season starts and for the main development region to warm. :roll:
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#383 Postby DorkyMcDorkface » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:19 am

SFLcane wrote:You know just this past week I started to see comparisons on Twitter to this season being 2001 or some super slow year. It’s extremely annoying to see this from know Mets honestly do you think Phil K who has been in the business studying and making these forecast base his seasonal outlook based solely on mdr ssts being a bit on the cool side. There are plenty of factors that go into it. There is strong agreement from well know sources that this year could be busy so lets just let things develop and check back in June. There are still 4 months to go before the real season starts and for the main development region to warm. :roll:

I never really considered 2001 to be "slow" tbh, ACE-wise it wasn't super impressive and it got off to a slow start (zero hurricanes in August) but it was very much a backloaded season - SON was active and the season finished with a respectable NS-HU-MH ratio of 15-9-4. Again the lackluster August (and perhaps Erin and Felix remaining weak/dissipating in the MDR) really weighed it down ACE-wise but other than that it was a decently active season all things considered.

Image
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#384 Postby Category5Kaiju » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:25 am

DorkyMcDorkface wrote:
SFLcane wrote:You know just this past week I started to see comparisons on Twitter to this season being 2001 or some super slow year. It’s extremely annoying to see this from know Mets honestly do you think Phil K who has been in the business studying and making these forecast base his seasonal outlook based solely on mdr ssts being a bit on the cool side. There are plenty of factors that go into it. There is strong agreement from well know sources that this year could be busy so lets just let things develop and check back in June. There are still 4 months to go before the real season starts and for the main development region to warm. :roll:

I never really considered 2001 to be "slow" tbh, ACE-wise it wasn't super impressive and it got off to a slow start (zero hurricanes in August) but it was very much a backloaded season - SON was active and the season finished with a respectable NS-HU-MH ratio of 15-9-4. Again the lackluster August (and perhaps Erin and Felix remaining weak/dissipating in the MDR) really weighed it down ACE-wise but other than that it was a decently active season all things considered.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/l0wizcwtjg0vutovxely1yecax7xog2.png


Also, 2001 was a weak cool neutral year; seems like this year has a continuing La Nina in contrast.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#385 Postby cycloneye » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:40 am

2001 slow with 17/9/4? Above average in each category.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#386 Postby Yellow Evan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:18 am

Category5Kaiju wrote:
DorkyMcDorkface wrote:
SFLcane wrote:You know just this past week I started to see comparisons on Twitter to this season being 2001 or some super slow year. It’s extremely annoying to see this from know Mets honestly do you think Phil K who has been in the business studying and making these forecast base his seasonal outlook based solely on mdr ssts being a bit on the cool side. There are plenty of factors that go into it. There is strong agreement from well know sources that this year could be busy so lets just let things develop and check back in June. There are still 4 months to go before the real season starts and for the main development region to warm. :roll:

I never really considered 2001 to be "slow" tbh, ACE-wise it wasn't super impressive and it got off to a slow start (zero hurricanes in August) but it was very much a backloaded season - SON was active and the season finished with a respectable NS-HU-MH ratio of 15-9-4. Again the lackluster August (and perhaps Erin and Felix remaining weak/dissipating in the MDR) really weighed it down ACE-wise but other than that it was a decently active season all things considered.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/l0wizcwtjg0vutovxely1yecax7xog2.png


Also, 2001 was a weak cool neutral year; seems like this year has a continuing La Nina in contrast.


A weak La Niña and cool neutral aren’t terribly different.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#387 Postby Shell Mound » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:32 am

Image
Image

Based on the correlation with the April forecast (below), the long-range ECMWF seems to handle H5 heights in ASO very well, several months in advance, at least in the tropics—mainly equatorial Africa and South America, as well as the western MDR, the Caribbean, and Mexico. This lends some credence to the EC’s April outlook for ASO of 2022, which indicates relatively average or slightly-above-average heights over the aforementioned regions. In particular, the projected heights over the western MDR, Caribbean, and Mexico suggest elevated heights farther north. In all, the expected pattern correlates fairly well with that which attends major-hurricane impacts on peninsular Florida during ASO.

Image
Image

Compared to 2016–21, 2022 may feature more of a zonal vs. meridional ridge over eastern North America during the peak of the season, which would better fit the pattern that was seen in 2004–5. Such a pattern would imply more of a risk to peninsular Florida than has been seen in several recent seasons. During ASO of 2016–21, the axial ridge extended from south to north rather than from east to west, which, combined with a weakness over the central subtropical Atlantic, meant that storms curved northward toward the Gulf Coast or the Carolinas or headed OTS, mostly avoiding peninsular Florida. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type configuration, as suggested by the April EC outlook for ASO ‘22, would allow one or more hurricanes to threaten peninsular Florida.

Image
Image

As can be observed above, 2016–21 featured an active West-African monsoon (WAM), but the western portion of the MDR, along with the eastern Caribbean, was drier than average. Above-average precipitation along the Gulf Coast and off the Eastern Seaboard correlated well with observed TC activity. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type steering regime, coupled with -ENSO, a stronger -PDO, and a robust WAM, would potentially allow for a somewhat wetter pattern in the western MDR and eastern Caribbean, along with a shift in above-average precipitation from the Gulf Coast eastward, toward peninsular Florida.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#388 Postby SFLcane » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:33 pm

Shell Mound wrote:https://i.ibb.co/mvm6MbW/Ska-rmavbild-2022-04-05-kl-15-43-57.png
https://i.ibb.co/jzHJKJv/Ska-rmavbild-2022-04-17-kl-17-43-38.png

Based on the correlation with the April forecast (below), the long-range ECMWF seems to handle H5 heights in ASO very well, several months in advance, at least in the tropics—mainly equatorial Africa and South America, as well as the western MDR, the Caribbean, and Mexico. This lends some credence to the EC’s April outlook for ASO of 2022, which indicates relatively average or slightly-above-average heights over the aforementioned regions. In particular, the projected heights over the western MDR, Caribbean, and Mexico suggest elevated heights farther north. In all, the expected pattern correlates fairly well with that which attends major-hurricane impacts on peninsular Florida during ASO.

https://i.ibb.co/KscvVzZ/201621-H5anom-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/7RYrDz4/201621-H5anom.png

Compared to 2016–21, 2022 may feature more of a zonal vs. meridional ridge over eastern North America during the peak of the season, which would better fit the pattern that was seen in 2004–5. Such a pattern would imply more of a risk to peninsular Florida than has been seen in several recent seasons. During ASO of 2016–21, the axial ridge extended from south to north rather than from east to west, which, combined with a weakness over the central subtropical Atlantic, meant that storms curved northward toward the Gulf Coast or the Carolinas or headed OTS, mostly avoiding peninsular Florida. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type configuration, as suggested by the April EC outlook for ASO ‘22, would allow one or more hurricanes to threaten peninsular Florida.

https://i.ibb.co/5czCd3L/201621-ASOprecipwater.png
https://i.ibb.co/C6gWTxm/201621-ASOprecipwater-2.png

As can be observed above, 2016–21 featured an active West-African monsoon (WAM), but the western portion of the MDR, along with the eastern Caribbean, was drier than average. Above-average precipitation along the Gulf Coast and off the Eastern Seaboard correlated well with observed TC activity. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type steering regime, coupled with -ENSO, a stronger -PDO, and a robust WAM, would potentially allow for a somewhat wetter pattern in the western MDR and eastern Caribbean, along with a shift in above-average precipitation from the Gulf Coast eastward, toward peninsular Florida.


Lol it was all similar early on with the euro last year and by August a mega trof setup in the Atl recurving even crabs in the bottom of the ocean.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#389 Postby Shell Mound » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:50 pm

SFLcane wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:https://i.ibb.co/mvm6MbW/Ska-rmavbild-2022-04-05-kl-15-43-57.png
https://i.ibb.co/jzHJKJv/Ska-rmavbild-2022-04-17-kl-17-43-38.png

Based on the correlation with the April forecast (below), the long-range ECMWF seems to handle H5 heights in ASO very well, several months in advance, at least in the tropics—mainly equatorial Africa and South America, as well as the western MDR, the Caribbean, and Mexico. This lends some credence to the EC’s April outlook for ASO of 2022, which indicates relatively average or slightly-above-average heights over the aforementioned regions. In particular, the projected heights over the western MDR, Caribbean, and Mexico suggest elevated heights farther north. In all, the expected pattern correlates fairly well with that which attends major-hurricane impacts on peninsular Florida during ASO.

https://i.ibb.co/KscvVzZ/201621-H5anom-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/7RYrDz4/201621-H5anom.png

Compared to 2016–21, 2022 may feature more of a zonal vs. meridional ridge over eastern North America during the peak of the season, which would better fit the pattern that was seen in 2004–5. Such a pattern would imply more of a risk to peninsular Florida than has been seen in several recent seasons. During ASO of 2016–21, the axial ridge extended from south to north rather than from east to west, which, combined with a weakness over the central subtropical Atlantic, meant that storms curved northward toward the Gulf Coast or the Carolinas or headed OTS, mostly avoiding peninsular Florida. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type configuration, as suggested by the April EC outlook for ASO ‘22, would allow one or more hurricanes to threaten peninsular Florida.

https://i.ibb.co/5czCd3L/201621-ASOprecipwater.png
https://i.ibb.co/C6gWTxm/201621-ASOprecipwater-2.png

As can be observed above, 2016–21 featured an active West-African monsoon (WAM), but the western portion of the MDR, along with the eastern Caribbean, was drier than average. Above-average precipitation along the Gulf Coast and off the Eastern Seaboard correlated well with observed TC activity. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type steering regime, coupled with -ENSO, a stronger -PDO, and a robust WAM, would potentially allow for a somewhat wetter pattern in the western MDR and eastern Caribbean, along with a shift in above-average precipitation from the Gulf Coast eastward, toward peninsular Florida.

Lol it was all similar early on with the euro last year and by August a mega trof setup in the Atl recurving even crabs in the bottom of the ocean.

Image
Image

The forecast was actually quite accurate in terms of gauging the magnitude but not the exact placement of the outstanding heights. The ridge did indeed verify.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#390 Postby aspen » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:58 pm

SFLcane wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:https://i.ibb.co/mvm6MbW/Ska-rmavbild-2022-04-05-kl-15-43-57.png
https://i.ibb.co/jzHJKJv/Ska-rmavbild-2022-04-17-kl-17-43-38.png

Based on the correlation with the April forecast (below), the long-range ECMWF seems to handle H5 heights in ASO very well, several months in advance, at least in the tropics—mainly equatorial Africa and South America, as well as the western MDR, the Caribbean, and Mexico. This lends some credence to the EC’s April outlook for ASO of 2022, which indicates relatively average or slightly-above-average heights over the aforementioned regions. In particular, the projected heights over the western MDR, Caribbean, and Mexico suggest elevated heights farther north. In all, the expected pattern correlates fairly well with that which attends major-hurricane impacts on peninsular Florida during ASO.

https://i.ibb.co/KscvVzZ/201621-H5anom-2.png
https://i.ibb.co/7RYrDz4/201621-H5anom.png

Compared to 2016–21, 2022 may feature more of a zonal vs. meridional ridge over eastern North America during the peak of the season, which would better fit the pattern that was seen in 2004–5. Such a pattern would imply more of a risk to peninsular Florida than has been seen in several recent seasons. During ASO of 2016–21, the axial ridge extended from south to north rather than from east to west, which, combined with a weakness over the central subtropical Atlantic, meant that storms curved northward toward the Gulf Coast or the Carolinas or headed OTS, mostly avoiding peninsular Florida. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type configuration, as suggested by the April EC outlook for ASO ‘22, would allow one or more hurricanes to threaten peninsular Florida.

https://i.ibb.co/5czCd3L/201621-ASOprecipwater.png
https://i.ibb.co/C6gWTxm/201621-ASOprecipwater-2.png

As can be observed above, 2016–21 featured an active West-African monsoon (WAM), but the western portion of the MDR, along with the eastern Caribbean, was drier than average. Above-average precipitation along the Gulf Coast and off the Eastern Seaboard correlated well with observed TC activity. A shift toward a 2004-/‘05-type steering regime, coupled with -ENSO, a stronger -PDO, and a robust WAM, would potentially allow for a somewhat wetter pattern in the western MDR and eastern Caribbean, along with a shift in above-average precipitation from the Gulf Coast eastward, toward peninsular Florida.


Lol it was all similar early on with the euro last year and by August a mega trof setup in the Atl recurving even crabs in the bottom of the ocean.

I think 2020 was also forecast to have strong ridging, but that also didn’t pan out. West-based development was only due to waves taking forever to consolidate into something strong enough to be lifted north.

Just assume there’ll be recurves and weak ridging unless strong evidence saying otherwise pops up in, like, August. Even at that, ridging has been very unpredictable and August predictions might not verify either.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#391 Postby DorkyMcDorkface » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:36 pm

I feel diagnosing steering patterns 4+ months out (from ASO) generally isn't a great idea. Too much intraseasonal variability that most models cannot pick up on.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#392 Postby toad strangler » Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:00 pm

DorkyMcDorkface wrote:I feel diagnosing steering patterns 4+ months out (from ASO) generally isn't a great idea. Too much intraseasonal variability that most models cannot pick up on.


Fools gold to do it.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#393 Postby cycloneye » Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:40 pm

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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#394 Postby NotSparta » Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:41 pm



That second one was just sarcastic lol - the MDR is cool yes but we are by no means in a -AMO. It's a pretty good reflection of that 2nd EOF +AMO
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#395 Postby SteveM » Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:37 pm

Shell Mound wrote:
SteveM wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:That’s true, but did the Atlantic Niño play a role? Given that Atlantic Niños tend to cool the MDR, I am somewhat skeptical of the notion that they aid TCG.

Is that picture from a specific year? And is there a clear causal link?

No, it’s a mean illustration of Atlantic Niños in general. Atlantic Niños typically coincide with a cooler MDR vs. Atlantic Niñas.


The site you link notes that the precipitation anomalies in the bottom image are statistically significant, but makes no such claim about the SSTAs. With that in mind, and the general principle that correlation does not imply causation, I would caution against drawing a conclusion like "Atlantic ninos tend to cool the MDR".
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#396 Postby Kingarabian » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:04 pm


Also keep in mind these years were impacted some way or another by +ENSO/El Nino. That won't be the case this year.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#397 Postby Category5Kaiju » Sun Apr 17, 2022 10:30 pm

Kingarabian wrote:

Also keep in mind these years were impacted some way or another by +ENSO/El Nino. That won't be the case this year.


You actually make a very good point that I feel should be really emphasized; unlike any other year 2016-2021, 2022 seems like it could be the first year to feature a hurricane season that begins and occurs during a La Nina. That alone I feel could serve as a boost for the season.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#398 Postby Yellow Evan » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:32 pm

Kingarabian wrote:

Also keep in mind these years were impacted some way or another by +ENSO/El Nino. That won't be the case this year.


2016 and 2021 were not affected by Nino.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#399 Postby skyline385 » Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:52 pm

Category5Kaiju wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:

Also keep in mind these years were impacted some way or another by +ENSO/El Nino. That won't be the case this year.


You actually make a very good point that I feel should be really emphasized; unlike any other year 2016-2021, 2022 seems like it could be the first year to feature a hurricane season that begins and occurs during a La Nina. That alone I feel could serve as a boost for the season.


2020 was impacted by +ENSO? Sure didn't feel like it.
By mid-April, the entire NATL was burning in 2020. 2022 doesn't even look close to it and while I am sure this will be another above-average or close to hyperactive season, there would need to be some insane warming of the NATL in the next months to beat 2020. 2020 had so much cyclogenesis that we constantly had tons of multiple systems and centers within monsoon troughs fighting each other.
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Re: 2022 indicators: SSTs / SAL / MSLP / shear / steering / instability / images

#400 Postby DorkyMcDorkface » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:05 am

Yellow Evan wrote:
Kingarabian wrote:

Also keep in mind these years were impacted some way or another by +ENSO/El Nino. That won't be the case this year.


2016 and 2021 were not affected by Nino.

I suppose you could make a case for 2016 as the Niña that year was quite anemic and its effects took a while to impact the Atlantic in the wake of the prior super Niño event (leftover strong +PMM and +PDO/active EPAC). Obviously there were no outright Niño conditions, but atmospherically there were likely lingering effects.
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