2 things I think should be eliminated.

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VeniceInlet
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#41 Postby VeniceInlet » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:18 pm

If you ask someone what happens if they are 10' above sea level and the forecast calls for up to 20' surge...even a child with basic math skills could figure that outcome out.


I disagree. What if they are at 10 feet and advised about a 8 foot surge but they forget about accounting for waves? What if they are 2 miles inland at 10' and not sure if a 20 foot surge will go inland that far? That's what I'm talking about. Of course three blocks from the water is obvious but a mile? Two miles? Three miles? The example I gave was a guy 14 feet above sea level a mile or so inland on an island who thinks he is safe regardless of what hits here. This guy isn't a gambler, nor is he stupid. He IS, however, ignorant, which by definition, means uneducated about a topic. It's not an insult unless you put "willfully" in front of the word.

Speaking as someone with experience as well, I see MANY educated people who are confused about surge potentials, even the way they were communicated with Ike. It's not the gamblers or the stubborn we're talking about here, we're talking about people who need real data in order to make a real decision that could affect their lives. I think a better way of communicating storm intensity would be helpful, not just height but including how far it is expected go inland. As I said earlier, even if it improves just a fraction of the public's decisionmaking or saves even one more life per storm that otherwise would have been lost, it's worth it.
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Re:

#42 Postby jinftl » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:28 pm

Well then a 'real' education has been had by anyone who got in the way of ike's surge...therefore we should expect 100% compliance with evacuation orders with the next storm from galveston to the LA border.

Unless we are saying not enough areas were ordered evacuated or that the potential surge height was not forecast...and i have not heard anyone make that claim... if local officials tell me my area....by way of zip code or zone on established maps found in every phonebook...is in a surge zone, it's really not that confusing. No calculations of wave crests or elevation estimates are needed....officials did the work for us. If they say leave, leave. If you see the bulk of your neighbors leaving....ask why they are...and then leave. Best case, you go home a day or 2 later. Worst case, no home is left but you get to keep your life. Win Win.

Those who second guess what officials are telling them to do...or those who didn't know of the surge risk with a storm like ike...are not going to be any more swayed by a new system of storm surge risk that has never been tested in an actual storm. All it will do is reinforce the belief by those who would have evacuated anyways that they should go.

Evacuation orders were made for areas that were beyond what a typical cat 2 would have required even with ike. If there is no faith in what officials are telling us....or we inject our erroneous beliefs about storms, positive thinking, and past experience.....then i guess i can see how there could be confusion and the need to bring out the map and try and guess elevation, wave impact, etc. Otherwise, when they tell you to go, go. Just go.



VeniceInlet wrote:
If you ask someone what happens if they are 10' above sea level and the forecast calls for up to 20' surge...even a child with basic math skills could figure that outcome out.


I disagree. What if they are at 10 feet and advised about a 8 foot surge but they forget about accounting for waves? What if they are 2 miles inland at 10' and not sure if a 20 foot surge will go inland that far? That's what I'm talking about. Of course three blocks from the water is obvious but a mile? Two miles? Three miles? The example I gave was a guy 14 feet above sea level a mile or so inland on an island who thinks he is safe regardless of what hits here. This guy isn't a gambler, nor is he stupid. He IS, however, ignorant, which by definition, means uneducated about a topic. It's not an insult unless you put "willfully" in front of the word.

Speaking as someone with experience as well, I see MANY educated people who are confused about surge potentials, even the way they were communicated with Ike. It's not the gamblers or the stubborn we're talking about here, we're talking about people who need real data in order to make a real decision that could affect their lives. I think a better way of communicating storm intensity would be helpful, not just height but including how far it is expected go inland. As I said earlier, even if it improves just a fraction of the public's decisionmaking or saves even one more life per storm that otherwise would have been lost, it's worth it.
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tolakram
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Re: 2 things I think should be eliminated.

#43 Postby tolakram » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:30 am

Severe thunderstorm watch, a yellow box.

Severe thunderstorm warning or tornado warning, red box.

Why not use the same methodology to predict surge watch and warning areas?
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Re: 2 things I think should be eliminated.

#44 Postby Recurve » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:21 pm

Think I've read the whole thing and don't see any mention of Powell et al and the new scale that AOML has instituted (not operationally).

They started a year or two ago analyzing all available measurements of a storm and producing a ranking from 1 to 6 in 0.1 increments that is designed to give a more accurate estimate of a storm's power -- potential for damage -- than just SS winds.

I'll try to dig up links. I checked their reports during last hurricane season. They produce graphics and data. The graphics show the real "shape" of the storm, worst quadrant and so on.

every time this discussion comes up I don't see much mention of the AOML work, yet it's an ongoing NOAA effort that addresses some of these concerns.
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