Can the Greek alphabet storms be retired?

[JohnTK5]

however in this case it is being used strictly as a letter.

No, if it was the letter it would be 'A'. Alpha is the Greek word for the letter A. I like to argue.

No Alpha is not the greek word for the letter A.

[FunkMasterB]

thats why i read this message board

No it isn't.

[senorpepr]

Wow... this question keeps popping up. I'll repeat once again.

A) Storms are NOT automatically retired if they become category five. They must cause significant damage and/or casualities. A category five fish will NOT be retired.

B) The "overtime" storms will be named: "Alpha" "Beta" "Gamma" etc. No year will be tacked on the end.

C) Greek letters will NOT be retired. They don't retire depression numbers and they don't retire Greek letters. Only names that cause significant damage and/or casualities.

WOW what an smart(y) reply. I had the same question and I disagree in part with your answer. There would be a HUGE difference between a depression # and a cat 4/5 hurricane that causes catastrophic damage that happens to be named "Alpha". I'm sure that since it would be an unprecedented occurance they would for posterity call it "Alpha 2005" and be done with it. In the rare case that "Alpha" had to be used again, it could.

You may think there is a "HUGE" difference between a depression # and a cat 4/5 hurricane, but ponder this: depressions have killed hundreds of people. That has happened within the past few years, but #12 isn't retired.

[senorpepr]

however in this case it is being used strictly as a letter.

No, if it was the letter it would be 'A'. Alpha is the Greek word for the letter A. I like to argue.

Alpha is not the Greek "word" for the letter A. It's the "English" pronunciation. We use the "English" pronunciation because many of the processors that run met bulletins would be confused if they use the actual letter. There will be massive computer errors if the header said "TROPICAL STORM Γ" instead of "TROPICAL STORM GAMMA"

[FunkMasterB]

Well then, when the Greeks recite their alphabet, what do they call "A"?

[jimvb]

In an earlier message, I mentioned four possible ways of dealing with a Hurricane Alpha whose name has to be retired. Someone rejected these for various reasons. One of these was to skip Alpha the next year and follow the W storm with Beta. I agreed with that, saying that this did not sound like a good idea. But I notice this. Apparently the weather people (NHC?) are going to do just that:

http://www.local10.com/hurricanes/5146808/detail.html

In another message in this thread, Senorpepr said that Alpha can't be retired because it is a letter, not a word. I argued that it was a word. It's a word used to represent a letter. However, that is not the reason why it would be difficult to retire Alpha. It has nothing to do with being a letter. To demonstrate this, I will show that hurricanes can't be named after US Presidents, but hurricanes could be named for cars.

To show that hurricanes can't be named for US Presidents, other than that it would favor a particular nation, let's say that Hurricane Washington hits Washington, DC causing billions of dollars in damage. Six years later, what would you call the first term? Hurricane Webster? No. No way was Webster ever a US President. The first president was Washington, and there is no way you can retire a past president from his term after his term. This is because the Presidents form a definite sequence.

However, one could name storms after cars. Say Hurricane Cadillac destroys many homes and other stuff in a metropolitan area, including 10,000 Cadillacs. Six years later, they will just replace "Cadillac" with "Camry", and if Hurricane Camry causes trouble, then six years later the third storm will be Chrysler, and so forth.

The difference is that US Presidents form a definite sequence, whereas cars are just merely a collection of objects. If we use collections to name storms, then we can retire a name and replace it with another from the collection, as collections have no definite order. For the same reason, one can use TV shows, dog breeds, and stars to name hurricanes.

However, one can't use US Presidents because they are in a definite sequence. You must recite the Presidents in their chronological order. So you can't replace a President with another President, because there is nothing to replace it with. For the same reason, chemical elements, days of the week, and New York subway stations can't be used as hurricane names.

I think the NHC should find a collection instead of the Greek alphabetical sequence to name post-W storms. However, this situation happens so rarely that it probably will not make that much of a difference.[/quote]

[NC George]

I think there is a flaw in your name/letter argument. I don't think the concept of 'retiring' names began until we started using names. So Hurricane Dog wasn't retired because...they simply didn't think of it - as we were still using military letter call signs for hurricane identification. We weren't as worried about people's feelings back then. They don't need to retire it now because they use names, not military letter call signs; so it has, in effect, been retired.

I think this is an intereting question - I don't think they will come up with an answer until the case presents itself. My personal thought is that if Hurricane Beta kills 50,000 in Haiti, they won't be using that name again (because we name hurricanes now, unlike in the 40's, Beta will be interpreted as a name by the masses, and it's for them we retire names,) and will come up with another plan of naming hurricanes after we run through the first name cycle (like another, permanent list [the extended list] of names that can be used year after year, as needed when the 6 year list runs out of names, which won't be very often used, and if a name needs to be retired, they will just replace the name on the extended list like they do now.) After all necessity is the mother of invention.

[Cyclone Runner]

This whole argument would go away if they just used q, u, x, y and z and put names to these letters. After all if they can name the latest Planet Xena, why can't we have Hurricane Xena or Uma or Yeti or Quailene or Zaza.

[Windy]

Well then, when the Greeks recite their alphabet, what do they call "A"?

They call it "ἄλφα".

[SamSagnella]

Well then, when the Greeks recite their alphabet, what do they call "A"?

They call it "ἄλφα".

But what does it sound like?

[Windy]

Well then, when the Greeks recite their alphabet, what do they call "A"?

They call it "ἄλφα".

But what does it sound like?

When used in a word, usually "α" is pronounced as when you say "ah". The name is pronounced "alpha". "ἄλφα" is the greek name for the greek letter "α", and its name is pronounced "alpha". The Roman letter "a" (who's name is pronounced "ay" or "ah", depending on language) is a derivative of the Greek letter "α", which is a derivative of the phoenician letter <img src="http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/4948/35pxphoenicianaleph6yd.png">, pronounced ʼāleph.

[jimvb]

Cyclone Runner, naming a hurricane Zaza, which would transform into Zsa Zsa, would really cause a stir in the media.

[Hurricanehink]

I read somewhere that Greek names can and will be retired. They will simply be skipped to the next letter. If Alpha was destructive this year, the next time we got to Greek letters it would go to Beta, skipping Alpha.

[Dr. Jonah Rainwater]

I read somewhere that Greek names can and will be retired. They will simply be skipped to the next letter. If Alpha was destructive this year, the next time we got to Greek letters it would go to Beta, skipping Alpha.

I heard this on TV. It was the chief meteorologist for either CNN, Fox, MSNBC...one of those. I don't know if the NHC has issued an official policy statement on that yet. They probably should, considering...you know.

[recmod]

Senorpepr...what do you make of this quote from Miami Local 10's website:

If Alpha develops into a hurricane, it will be one of a kind. According to the naming policy, if a Greek-letter hurricane becomes a major storm, that letter will be retired to prevent confusion if the 21 available names in any future season are all used

--Lou

[jimvb]

I think the dropping of a name from the Greek alphabet list would cause confusion, as Senorpepr pointed out. Even using the Greek alphabet will cause confusion.

Many people know the phonetic alphabet but not the Greek alphabet. This is especially true in the military. There are probably plenty of military personnel out there right now expecting the next tropical cyclone in the Atlantic will be called Bravo, and some will wonder what will be next because there has already been a Hurricane Charley. They will wonder what Beta is. If they learn that the names come from the sequence Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and so forth, they will wonder what happened to the C, D, E, and F storms since Gamma begins with a G instead of a C. Eventually people will learn the Greek alphabet, especially if a Greek storm becomes a notable or memorable one.

[senorpepr]

Senorpepr...what do you make of this quote from Miami Local 10's website:

If Alpha develops into a hurricane, it will be one of a kind. According to the naming policy, if a Greek-letter hurricane becomes a major storm, that letter will be retired to prevent confusion if the 21 available names in any future season are all used

--Lou

I think that is a bad comment. First, no storm will be retired if it become a major storm alone. Now... if it becomes a deadly and/or damaging hurricane, then maybe. Second, I have yet to see any official policy on this. If one has been issued, it's been fairly recently.

Bottom line, before any name can be retired, the affected nation must request for retirement at the WMO meeting and the other attendees must agree. I can see a bit of a debate on the retirement of a letter.

[AZRainman]

What's more, a storm name is retired if it causes widespread damage and deaths. So if there is a deadly Hurricane Alpha, what is it replaced with when it's retired?

"We don't know. It will go to the Swahili alphabet or something else," joked Jim Lushine, severe weather expert at the National Weather Service in Miami.

USA Today

There are six lists that are rotated and contain 21 names each. The letters q, u, x, y and z are not represented. If the list for a year is depleted, the WMO begins using the letters of the Greek alphabet beginning with Alpha. This has never had to be done since the system was instituted. According to the naming policy, if a Greek-letter hurricane becomes a major storm, that letter will need to be retired causing some confusion as to what it will be replaced with.

[senorpepr]

Here's more information regarding Greek letter retirements, according to the Tropical Cyclone FAQ of Dr. Landsea:

Subject: B6) What happens if they run out of names on the list?
Contributed by Neal Dorst

In the Atlantic and East Pacific, if they have run through the list they then used the Greek alphabet : Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta,... etc. . So if they ever have a Hurricane Omega you know it's been a busy year. At the present time there is no provision for retiring any of the Greek alphabet names, should one be so terrible as to be excluded. Fortunately, Tropical Storms Alpha and Beta in 2005 have been the only use of this option.

In the Central and West Pacific they have a perpetual lists of names, so when one list is through they simply start on the next.

Last Updated Oct. 26, 2005

http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/B6.html

[senorpepr]

I know I'm bumping something from the past, but I thought I'd share this:

This was from the WMO meeting (region IV) last April.

LINK

Because of the record-breaking 2005 hurricane season,
in which the list of assigned names had been exhausted and the Greek Alphabet was used for
the first time in the Atlantic Basin, there was considerable discussion on the use of the Greek
Alphabet. Many views were expressed on whether a significant storm that was designated by a
Greek letter could be retired into history, as is done with regular names. It was generally agreed
that the use in 2005 of the Greek Alphabet had a major important political, economic and social
impact globally, which may not have been the case if a supplemental list of regular names had
been used after exhausting the normal list. The Hurricane Committee therefore unanimously
decided that the Greek Alphabet would continue to be used.

In this connection, The Committee also agreed that it was not practical to “retire into
hurricane history” a letter in the Greek Alphabet. It therefore decided that if a significant storm
designated by a letter of the Greek Alphabet, in either the Atlantic or eastern North Pacific Basin,
were considered worthy of being “retired”, it would be included in the list of retired names with
the year of occurrence and other details, but that the particular letter in the Greek Alphabet
would continue to be available for use in the future. The Committee agreed that the criteria for
inclusion of such storms in the list would be the same as those for the retirement of regular
names, and that the header of Tables III and IV in Chapter 9 of the Hurricane Operational Plan
would be amended to include “…and Significant Storms designated by a letter of the Greek
Alphabet” with a footnote indicating the criteria for inclusion.