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superfly

#81 Postby superfly » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:24 am

jkt21787 wrote:
superfly wrote:
jkt21787 wrote:People should have been more concerned about the surge and not wind since the surge is what could flood the city and kill many more than the wind. The surge will still be very impressive and destructive, even cat 5 levels of 20+ feet is very possible. Everyone remembers Ivan's surge even though it weakened, we are looking at the same situation here, only worse.


Surge is caused by wind.

True, and that is exactly what the problem is. This was a cat 5, and cat 5 surge was produced. That surge just doesn't go away. Again look at Ivan. It was 120 mph coming, yet it had a cat 4 surge as it was a cat 4 hours before landfall. Same situation here could be playing out except we're dealing with cat 5 surge.


The surge created right now is going west in Lake Pontchartrain. The southern direction of the surge is the main concern which is produced when the center passes east of the city. I'm taking a stab in the dark on this, but I'm pretty sure surge waves don't change direction. Therefore, the surge toward NOLA will be when the storm passes to the east, not what it is creating right now.
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#82 Postby mtm4319 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:27 am

Thunder44 wrote:299
WHXX01 KWBC 290605
CHGHUR

DISCLAIMER...NUMERICAL MODELS ARE SUBJECT TO LARGE ERRORS.
PLEASE REFER TO TPC/NHC OFFICIAL FORECASTS FOR TROPICAL CYCLONES.

NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER NORTH ATLANTIC OBJECTIVE AIDS FOR

HURRICANE KATRINA (AL122005) ON 20050829 0600 UTC

...00 HRS... ...12 HRS... ...24 HRS... ...36 HRS...
050829 0600 050829 1800 050830 0600 050830 1800

LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON
BAMD 28.1N 89.6W 30.7N 90.0W 34.1N 89.1W 37.6N 85.7W
BAMM 28.1N 89.6W 30.3N 90.0W 32.7N 89.2W 35.3N 86.7W
A98E 28.1N 89.6W 30.1N 90.1W 32.3N 89.4W 36.1N 86.2W
LBAR 28.1N 89.6W 30.3N 89.9W 32.6N 89.6W 35.2N 88.3W
SHIP 140KTS 140KTS 130KTS 114KTS
DSHP 140KTS 123KTS 55KTS 36KTS

...48 HRS... ...72 HRS... ...96 HRS... ..120 HRS...
050831 0600 050901 0600 050902 0600 050903 0600

LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON LAT LON
BAMD 40.9N 80.1W 46.9N 69.8W 51.9N 64.3W 54.3N 60.4W
BAMM 38.2N 82.4W 43.4N 72.2W 47.9N 64.3W 50.6N 58.6W
A98E 39.7N 82.6W 47.1N 71.4W 52.3N 57.6W 52.6N 40.2W
LBAR 37.7N 85.7W 43.4N 76.6W 49.0N 61.0W .0N .0W
SHIP 94KTS 58KTS 21KTS 0KTS
DSHP 30KTS 30KTS 30KTS 0KTS

...INITIAL CONDITIONS...
LATCUR = 28.1N LONCUR = 89.6W DIRCUR = 335DEG SPDCUR = 10KT
LATM12 = 26.4N LONM12 = 88.7W DIRM12 = 320DEG SPDM12 = 10KT
LATM24 = 25.2N LONM24 = 86.8W
WNDCUR = 140KT RMAXWD = 20NM WNDM12 = 145KT
CENPRS = 910MB OUTPRS = 1006MB OUTRAD = 350NM SDEPTH = D
RD34NE = 200NM RD34SE = 200NM RD34SW = 150NM RD34NW = 180NM

They still have at 140kts with the pressure 910mb. So they haven't decided downgrade her yet. Also she's still moving NNW.


I also notice they all push her to 89.9 or west. I don't think it'll make it that far though. And even tenths of a degree are extremely important right now.
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#83 Postby jpigott » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:28 am

jkt21787 wrote:AP reporting 107 mph wind gust in Downtown N.O.


wow, that is scary if that wind reading verifies given Katrina's center is still about 100 miles away
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#84 Postby btangy » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:31 am

Probably a mesocyclone moving through downtown NO
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wayoutfront

#85 Postby wayoutfront » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:37 am

They still have at 140kts with the pressure 910mb. So they haven't decided downgrade her yet. Also she's still moving NNW.


why would they downgrade her with those pressures???????????

910 is still a strong Cat 5...

If you can find a cat 4 that had a central pressure of 910 I might can understand your reasoning
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#86 Postby jkt21787 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:40 am

New vortex maintains 910 pressure.
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#87 Postby djtil » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:42 am

why would they downgrade her with those pressures???????????


hurricane strength is defined by wind speed....not pressure.....is there a template for correlation..yes...but the categories are wind based.

trust recon.....
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#88 Postby Thunder44 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:43 am

wayoutfront wrote:
They still have at 140kts with the pressure 910mb. So they haven't decided downgrade her yet. Also she's still moving NNW.


why would they downgrade her with those pressures???????????

910 is still a strong Cat 5...

If you can find a cat 4 that had a central pressure of 910 I might can understand your reasoning


I agree with you, but it seems some people on this board are pushing for it because they don't the see winds to support a Cat 5 on recon reports.
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#89 Postby Wthrman13 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:48 am

The 3 concentric eyewalls are likely spreading the pressure gradient out quite a bit, lowering the maximum winds despite the very low pressure.
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#90 Postby FunkeeProtozoan2 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:54 am

I agree with you, but it seems some people on this board are pushing for it because they don't the see winds to support a Cat 5 on recon reports.

This is exactly right. Everyone wants this to be a ginormous Cat 5 monster...the worst ever. It's going to be bad, but not that bad. There is plenty to suggest that this thing is weakening. People can cling to the barometric pressure if they like, but it's an imprecise metric.
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wayoutfront

#91 Postby wayoutfront » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:00 am

you just don't ignore the pressure ...

especially as it relates to downgrading........

If this were Cat 4 with a 910 central pressure... NHC would be scrambling like crazy to find out If their pressure guage or their wind speed meter was broke.



guess they did downgrade it
Last edited by wayoutfront on Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#92 Postby Thunder44 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:01 am

It's been downgraded to 155mph winds a Cat 4.
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#93 Postby ConvergenceZone » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:02 am

I think this will be bad, but I don't think this will be as bad as they thing it will be. I don't believe in the whole doom and gloom scenerio I've read here or heard on CNN.

Also, as others have pointed out, these storms have had a history of weakening quite a bit right before land, so let's hope that this weakening trend continues!!!
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#94 Postby djtil » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:03 am

you just don't ignore the pressure ...


you also dont ignore countless numbers of wind measurements taken over multiple passes.
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#95 Postby loon » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:04 am

Take this for what its worth, but if this thing comes in and does not:

A) hurt or kill alot of people
B) Level or severly damage most or all buildings
and
3) cause major, major flooding,

It's actually for the worse...I know that sounds bad, but hear me out. Kat was "the one" just earlier today. Still might be. People are scrambling to get into the Superdome or whatever. NOLA has been "the big easy" for along time, and its people are in the same mindset 24/7. Should this not be as bad as sensationalized by the media, you can bet 80% will never leave again. For better or for worse. This will bleed to other areas, who many will also not leave. I know this is brought up everytime a "big one" comes rolling in, but it needs repeating I believe. We ALMOST need mass destruction to wake people up the the consequences of a CAT4/5 storm. This includes politicians, lawmakers, and lawyers. Again, I know this sounds quite harsh, and as much as I'm always on the side of cheering the big ones, and using the excuse that you can't control mother nature so I don't have to feel bad about the deaths, TRUST ME, I will feel bad and I don't mean to downplay death, I know alot of people on here have family out there, and that sucks, very much. However, seems alot of people stayed behind on this one, and they need a wake up call as to what these can do, and NOLA happens to be the best place, due to its geographical makeup, to show the world just how bad these can be.

Again, I know this post will piss off most if not all of the fellow members here, and for that I'm sorry. I just think it needs to be said, even as dark as statement as it was.

Mods, feel free to delete this post should it deeply affect others on the board.

loon
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#96 Postby ConvergenceZone » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:08 am

true, but it will be a breath of fresh air as far as the economy is concerned. I still think it's going to do quite a bit of damage, worse than Ivan, but probably not worse then Andrew, but we will have to wait and see, as that's just my own speculation.
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#97 Postby FunkeeProtozoan2 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:10 am

Biggest storm in US history? No. Storm of the century? Not even close. Storm of the decade. Probably not. The media will continue to hype the hell out of it though. Hours ago, it was clear this storm was weakening. Yet, you heard absolutely nothing about it from the media. I bet MSNBC is still calling it a Cat 5 with 165 mph winds.
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#98 Postby ConvergenceZone » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:14 am

It still has the chance to outdo Andrew. It will still be really bad.
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#99 Postby oneness » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:15 am

On the dubious up-side, the city may not need quite so much pumping out after this storm as people think right now (if the worst occurs, that is), simply because the levy banks will probably be smashed and eroded away also. Much of the water may drain away again naturally, due to the levy banks not being there any more in some places, to retain deep water in the city after the storm passes. Not much of a comfort though, but may make the rescue and recovery efforts a little easier.
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wayoutfront

#100 Postby wayoutfront » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:18 am

djtil wrote:
you just don't ignore the pressure ...


you also dont ignore countless numbers of wind measurements taken over multiple passes.


I agree as well...

I am still googling like crazy to find a cat 4 with 910 mb
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