If folks think Charley and Andrew were bad...

This is the general tropical discussion area. Anyone can take their shot at predicting a storms path.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Forum rules

The posts in this forum are NOT official forecasts and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or STORM2K. For official information, please refer to products from the National Hurricane Center and National Weather Service.

Help Support Storm2K
Message
Author
SouthernWx

If folks think Charley and Andrew were bad...

#1 Postby SouthernWx » Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:56 pm

No, I'm NOT attempting to downplay either Charley or Andrew's impact...both were extremely intense and destructive. What I'm stating is that as destructive as both small but violent hurricanes were....the effects on Florida were localized due to the unusually small diameter of the eyewall or "core" of the hurricane. At landfall near Homestead AFB in 1992, Andrew's core was about 25 miles wide. Charley's core was even smaller...only about 15-20 miles in diameter, with an eye 5 miles wide....small enough to fit entirely inside Charlotte Harbor.

By comparism, when hurricane Hugo slammed into South Carolina in 1989, the core of max winds...or the core where major hurricane conditions occurred was about 80 miles wide, extending over 55 miles to the NE and about 25 miles SW of the landfall point (Isle of Palms, SC).

What would the effects be on south Florida is a "Hugo-sized" cat-4 (135-140 mph/ 934 mb) were to strike? If a hurricane of Hugo's windfield parameter were to take Andrew's track across south Florida....from landfall at Homestead west through the Everglades into the GOM, West Palm Beach would have experienced wind gusts of 110 mph. ALL of Dade county and Broward county..as well as southern Palm Beach county would have experienced sustained winds of 115 mph or more, with gusts to 145-150 mph. The Upper Florida Keys would also have experienced major hurricane conditions, along with a large storm surge from Florida Bay (from 115+ mph westerly winds). Along the Florida southwest coast (which escaped the core of Andrew), it's likely all of Collier county would have experienced 120+ mph sustained winds..as would most of Lee county, including Fort Myers and Cape Coral
100-120 mph gusts would have occurred as far north as southern Sarasota county.

Hurricane Hugo's eye was 35 miles across at landfall...so the northern edge of a similar-size/ intensity hurricane's eye making landfall at Homestead would pass through downtown Miami. The result? Sustained winds from 135-140 mph and a devastating 11-13' storm surge would innundate Key Biscayne, Miami Beach, and downtown Miami. The extreme winds would cover all of Dade county...not just the narrow swath that missed downtown Miami in Andrew.

What would happen if a hurricane as large and intense as Hugo were to take Charley's path across Florida....from Dry Tortugas to Charlotte Harbor to Orlando & Daytona Beach? Everyone from near Sarasota to south of Marco Island would experience major hurricane conditions (115+ mph sustained winds)....and a storm surge of 15-19' would occur from Venice to Everglades City. Key West, which escaped Charley with 55-60 mph gusts would experience wind gusts in the 120-135 mph range...as well as a 7-10' storm surge. The eastern edge of the 35 mile wide eye would move inland directly over Fort Myers....and those islands from Captiva to Marco would go under water.

Orlando would likely experience winds even stronger than during Charley's passage....except the swath of 100+ mph winds would be much wider, and affect areas around Brevard county as well as Daytona.
A large hurricane on this track would also likely remain a major and dangerous hurricane as it accelerated through the Carolinas and into New England (the core wouldn't collapse from land effects and shear as quickly as Charley's did last Friday night. That's why Donna was a cat-4 in Florida and a major hurricane even into Connecticut and Rhode Island).

I'm not trying to frighten you....but instead alert and inform. As bad as a small, violent hurricane is.....a large hurricane of a similar intensity would be far worse for southern Florida. When did the last really large and intense hurricane impact southern Florida? Well, Donna was a large hurricane....much larger than Andrew or Charley, but still smaller than Hugo.

Memorable hurricanes in Florida's past that were in the same size and intensity range as Hugo include the severe Keys/ Texas hurricane of September 9-10, 1919.....the Great Miami hurricane of September 18, 1926....the tremendous and deadly "San Felipe" hurricane on September 16-17, 1928, and a monster category 4 hurricane in mid-September 1947 which caused 100+ mph winds across virtually the entire Florida peninsula south of a Melbourne to Sarasota line (even though landfall occurred just north of Fort Lauderdale then west across Naples and into the GOM). This hurricane was so large and intense (940 mb/ 27.75" mb), that the Miami WBO experienced 110 mph sustained winds....even though the eye passed 30 miles to their north (Miami was on the WEAK side of the eyewall). West Palm Beach airport measured wind gusts to 140 mph before the anemometer blew away. :eek:
0 likes   

Patrick99
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 1772
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 3:43 pm
Location: SW Broward, FL

worse

#2 Postby Patrick99 » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:18 pm

Yeah, it could certainly be worse, couldn't it? I was reading all those old reports on the NHC website today.....apparently, not only was that 1926 storm Hugo/Floyd sized, but it was slower than molasses as it moved over Florida.

And that 1919 Key West storm......something tells me that the Key West of today probably would be set back a decade with such a hit.

I still can't believe how small in area Charley really was. I pulled up some satellite pics of Andrew to compare - and even Andrew looked like a giant compared to Charley. I wonder how big the 1935 Labor Day hurricane was? Probably Andrew-sized, I'd wager.
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#3 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:19 pm

SouthernWx ... outstanding post ...

SF
0 likes   

User avatar
Aquawind
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6714
Age: 62
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2003 10:41 pm
Location: Salisbury, NC
Contact:

#4 Postby Aquawind » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:20 pm

Seems like it can always be worse..Your good at reminding us that Perry.. :wink:
Last edited by Aquawind on Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
Aslkahuna
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 4550
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:00 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

#5 Postby Aslkahuna » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:26 pm

The 1935 hurricane may have been more like Charley's size. On the other end of the scale is Hurricane Carla which made landfall in Port Lavaca TX in September 1961 as a Cat 4. This storm basically filled almost the whole GOM and the core of hurricane force winds was 175 miles in diameter and this is not the largest observed ATL storm (another Carla-this time a typhoon produced 55 kt wind gusts 600 miles from the center when it hit the Philippines in 1966). Carla was still bringing TS force winds when it went ET in Oklahoma.

Steve
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#6 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:38 pm

Aslkahuna wrote:The 1935 hurricane may have been more like Charley's size. On the other end of the scale is Hurricane Carla which made landfall in Port Lavaca TX in September 1961 as a Cat 4. This storm basically filled almost the whole GOM and the core of hurricane force winds was 175 miles in diameter and this is not the largest observed ATL storm (another Carla-this time a typhoon produced 55 kt wind gusts 600 miles from the center when it hit the Philippines in 1966). Carla was still bringing TS force winds when it went ET in Oklahoma.

Steve


Steve, didn't Supertyphoon Tip have a wind field of tropical storm force winds that extended out 1100 miles, or was that the diameter of the cyclone?

SF
0 likes   

User avatar
hial2
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 809
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:20 pm
Location: Indian trail N.C.

#7 Postby hial2 » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:38 pm

I seem to recall a short few years ago a SUPER typhoon in the Pacific (I know,not the Atlantic) that had sustained winds of over 200 mph..I think it went over a US held island and destroyed most of it..How would THAT sized storm fly in say, New Orleans?
0 likes   

Guest

#8 Postby Guest » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:47 pm

Hugo was one of the most ominous and biggest hurricanes to look at. Man was it intimidating...
0 likes   

User avatar
Stormsfury
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 10549
Age: 53
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:27 pm
Location: Summerville, SC

#9 Postby Stormsfury » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:48 pm

HKY_WX2 wrote:Hugo was one of the most ominous and biggest hurricanes to look at. Man was it intimidating...


and it's bite was just as bad as it's bark ...
0 likes   

Stratosphere747
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3772
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Location: Surfside Beach/Freeport Tx
Contact:

#10 Postby Stratosphere747 » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:00 pm

Typhoon Tip had gale force winds (17 m/s [34 kt, 39 mph]) which extended out for 1100 km [675 mi]in radius in the Northwest Pacific on 12 October, 1979
0 likes   

User avatar
Storminole
Tropical Depression
Tropical Depression
Posts: 70
Age: 64
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:53 pm
Location: Tallahassee, FL

#11 Postby Storminole » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:47 pm

This thread regarding the great storms of the past inspired me to track down an article I read some years back regarding the 1926 storm.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/weathe ... cane.story

The 1926 storm serves as a deadly reminder of the dangers of wandering from safe shelter during the eye. And the destruction of Moore Haven on the SW shore of Lake Okeechobee should have been a wake-up call to the extreme danger posed by the potential for wind driven surge. The events of 2 years later sadly demonstrate that those lessons went unheeded.
0 likes   

User avatar
USAwx1
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:57 pm
Location: Marineland, FL

#12 Postby USAwx1 » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:53 pm

Stormsfury wrote:
Aslkahuna wrote:The 1935 hurricane may have been more like Charley's size. On the other end of the scale is Hurricane Carla which made landfall in Port Lavaca TX in September 1961 as a Cat 4. This storm basically filled almost the whole GOM and the core of hurricane force winds was 175 miles in diameter and this is not the largest observed ATL storm (another Carla-this time a typhoon produced 55 kt wind gusts 600 miles from the center when it hit the Philippines in 1966). Carla was still bringing TS force winds when it went ET in Oklahoma.

Steve


Steve, didn't Supertyphoon Tip have a wind field of tropical storm force winds that extended out 1100 miles, or was that the diameter of the cyclone?

SF


Actually it was a 1100km radius of gale force winds (~15ms -1) on 10/12/79

Also SouthernWx....nice post!
0 likes   

Guest

#13 Postby Guest » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:16 pm

Great post SouthernWx...Its scary to think that the "BIG ONE" has'nt hit yet.
0 likes   

Stratosphere747
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 3772
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:34 pm
Location: Surfside Beach/Freeport Tx
Contact:

#14 Postby Stratosphere747 » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:53 pm

When you think about the "Big One"

Has it or has it not hit??? Over time there has been quite a few "Big Ones"

It is relative to the era and of course the impact....Some have been mentioned here in this thread...

After getting into hurricanes when I first moved to the Tx coast I have always been fascinated with the Indianola hurricanes....

Indianola before the first destructive hurricane hit in 1875 was the biggest and most thriving port in Tx...The town tried to recover only to be hit by an even larger cane in 1886....Which basically and did wipe the town off the map...

"Big One" I would think so because it changed the future history of Texas...

After Indianola was gone....Galveston became the main port of Tx and rapidly grew in population...

How "Big" would the 1900 storm have been if not for the Indianola hurricanes..

I could go on for awhile about the history, but wanted to keep it short and sweet as they say... :wink:
0 likes   

c5Camille

#15 Postby c5Camille » Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:44 pm

Camille had 190mph sustained with gusts to 220...
that was at landfall. 20 to 30 foot tidal surge.
pressure was 26.84 909

I think about that tidal surge.... I live 1/2 mile from
the beach here... with a bayou accross the street.
We are 16 feet above sea level... I would have
water in my attic! Yikes!

http://www.geocities.com/hurricanene/hu ... amille.htm
here is a link to Camille
0 likes   

User avatar
Lindaloo
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 22658
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pascagoula, MS

#16 Postby Lindaloo » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:47 pm

Before the wind gauges broke, they recorded a sustained wind of 198. I believe the winds and gusts were alot stronger. The storm surge in Pass Christian was 35 feet, according to the damage path report. The lone survivor of the Richelieu Apartments said she saw a tidal wave.
Last edited by Lindaloo on Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 likes   

User avatar
Aslkahuna
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 4550
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:00 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

#17 Postby Aslkahuna » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:49 pm

Camille though was a relatively compact storm. Imagine for a moment the impact caused by a Camille that was as large as STY Tip (or June 4 years earlier).

Steve
0 likes   

User avatar
Aslkahuna
Professional-Met
Professional-Met
Posts: 4550
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:00 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

#18 Postby Aslkahuna » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:52 pm

I think the typhoons referenced were either STY Paka or Pongsana both of which ravaged the US Territory of Guam. There was an erroneous report of a 236 mph gust at Andersen AB, Guam during Paka but post storm analysis indicated that this was not correct.

Steve
0 likes   

User avatar
Lindaloo
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 22658
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pascagoula, MS

#19 Postby Lindaloo » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:57 pm

I read about that Typhoon in Guam. Pretty intense.
0 likes   

Matthew5

#20 Postby Matthew5 » Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:04 am

Just think that if instead of Charley, something like Isabel, would of hit Florida. Isabel was huge with winds over 165 mph with gust upwards of 190 mph. The wind field 10 times as large if not more then Charleys. A storm like Isabel would cause not billions but hundreds of billions of dollars. In it is very possible it could happen later this year or 10 years from now. But it will happen :eek:
0 likes   


Return to “Talkin' Tropics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 71 guests