The Hurricane Stopper?

[jasons2k]

They had this guy in the radio here in Houston this morning. IMO this idea won't work for a number of reasons and it's impracticle. I'll be polite and just say it's "on the fringe" somewhere.

Anyway, thought you guys might want to check it out:

http://www.winwenger.com/hurrican.htm

[SouthFloridawx]

(Not Directed at the Poster)

[HURAKAN]

GOOD LUCK WITH IT!!!

[StJoe]

Start stocking up on ice!!! My freezer has at least 10 bags in it...But O don't know if I should use it for my weeeken runrummers instead....

[angelwing]

Not the iceman again

[Extremeweatherguy]

Ice at the bottom of the GOM? Is he making this up, or is that true?

[Deb321]

Although I for one do not agree with GW and hurricanes, it is my opinion we do not need to start messing with mother nature and her ways of protecting the earth. Hurricanes although destructive, do a good thing. What would happen if we stopped or even slowed down this natural phenomena?

[jasons2k]

Ice at the bottom of the GOM? Is he making this up, or is that true?

I've never heard of that before, but apparently he's referring to methane ice, which has a freezing temperature of 45*. Seems plausible; I just didn't realize the deep water temps got that low in the GOM either.

Regardless, I pretty much dismiss the whole thing as a fantasy. You'd need a polar ice cap, not just some ice, to do anything. I think in previous discussions on hurricane alteration (Dynomat, etc.) our mets and scientists have pretty much stated hurricanes are too massive and consume too much energy for any kind of current-day technology to have any effect. That's one of the man vs. nature areas where man will continue to lose - probably for hundreds or thousands of years to come. Even still - like Deb said - messing with Mother nature will probably be worse than the original problem.

[x-y-no]

It doesn't appear to me that this has been thought through at all. He makes some hand-waving arguments about cost effectiveness, but he has no hard numbers at all.

Hurricanes are far more effective at mixing the surface waters down to significant depth than this scheme ever could be. And they don't just draw from the top couple of meters, but from much of the mixed layer, which is why measures such as TCHP look at the depth of the 26 degree isotherm.

He says the "hurricane stopper" scheme would only require pumping air down to a fathom or so below the thermocline, but given a mixed layer typically at least 50 and frequently more than 100 meters thick, it's very hard to see how mixing 2 meters worth of cooler water up into the lower portion of the ML would have any significant effect. The fact that he's made an obvious error like this doesn't bode well for his having done much of a job of calculating the energy costs of really making this work on the scale of thousands of square miles that it would need to in order to really do any good.

[SouthFloridawx]

I don't think he realized the massive amounts of water he is trying to upwell. I think the only thing that can upwell waters like that is ... well a hurricane. The amount of man power and machinery to upwell thousands of square miles in front of a developing/exsisting storm would be unimaginable. The cost and the impacts from doing such would be staggering.

[x-y-no]

Ice at the bottom of the GOM? Is he making this up, or is that true?

Methane clathrates occur naturally in many parts of the ocean bottom, including in the Gulf.

Actually, this is another issue with his scheme, if it were ever to be implemented on a scale sufficient to affect hurricanes. Mixing that much warm water downwards could conceivably warm the abyssal waters enough to cause significant methane release, which would significantly add to global warming.

[SouthFloridawx]

Ice at the bottom of the GOM? Is he making this up, or is that true?

Methane clathrates occur naturally in many parts of the ocean bottom, including in the Gulf.

Actually, this is another issue with his scheme, if it were ever to be implemented on a scale sufficient to affect hurricanes. Mixing that much warm water downwards could conceivably warm the abyssal waters enough to cause significant methane release, which would significantly add to global warming.

Which is heavier H20 or Methane?

[x-y-no]

Ice at the bottom of the GOM? Is he making this up, or is that true?

Methane clathrates occur naturally in many parts of the ocean bottom, including in the Gulf.

Actually, this is another issue with his scheme, if it were ever to be implemented on a scale sufficient to affect hurricanes. Mixing that much warm water downwards could conceivably warm the abyssal waters enough to cause significant methane release, which would significantly add to global warming.

Which is heavier H20 or Methane?

Water is, but Methane clathrate is water ice with a high concentration of dissolved methane gas. It's only stable at the high pressure and relatively low temperature you get at the bottom.

[SouthFloridawx]

Ice at the bottom of the GOM? Is he making this up, or is that true?

Methane clathrates occur naturally in many parts of the ocean bottom, including in the Gulf.

Actually, this is another issue with his scheme, if it were ever to be implemented on a scale sufficient to affect hurricanes. Mixing that much warm water downwards could conceivably warm the abyssal waters enough to cause significant methane release, which would significantly add to global warming.

Which is heavier H20 or Methane?

Water is, but Methane clathrate is water ice with a high concentration of dissolved methane gas. It's only stable at the high pressure and relatively low temperature you get at the bottom.

So basically these are deposits of methane at the bottom of the ocean floor. But, how did they get there...? Was it under the surface of the ocean floor and slowly seaped through but, was trapped by the cold temps? There is also maybe one possiblity.. and I am not expert but, what if during a previous global warming experience was this methane gas somehow forced to the ocean floor after rapid cooling of the earths surface when the warming peaked out and the temps suddenly dropped?

[x-y-no]

So basically these are deposits of methane at the bottom of the ocean floor. But, how did they get there...? Was it under the surface of the ocean floor and slowly seaped through but, was trapped by the cold temps? There is also maybe one possiblity.. and I am not expert but, what if during a previous global warming experience was this methane gas somehow forced to the ocean floor after rapid cooling of the earths surface when the warming peaked out and the temps suddenly dropped?

Wherever you have oil deposits (and as you know there's lots of oil under the Gulf) you typically have methane as well. This methane gradually seeps upward and forms the clathrate deposits when it mixes with water.

[SouthFloridawx]

Wherever you have oil deposits (and as you know there's lots of oil under the Gulf) you typically have methane as well. This methane gradually seeps upward and forms the clathrate deposits when it mixes with water.

Got ya! Thanks for the explination!

[Jim Cantore]

inexpensive? suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

and I thought "I" had too much time on my hands

this idea would wipe out warm water fish

[Audrey2Katrina]

And this guy is a Ph.D?

A2K

[Jim Cantore]

And this guy is a Ph.D?

A2K

Ph.D? did he get it at a college or buy it on the street?

[Rainband]

And this guy is a Ph.D?

A2K

Ph.D? did he get it at a college or buy it on the street?

I agree