YOU ARE BEING LIED TO

[kometes]

Really I just saw Rice in a live press conference 30 minutes ago at the state department. Check your political agenda at the door please.

Six days late? Check your spin please.

She is the Secretary of State. Please elucidate.

What part of the Constitution do you people not understand?

Well, if I was president, she would have been on the phone trying to stabilize oil prices by working on other gov'ts to boost production in the short term as well as working with commerce secretary to reroute import and export shipments so that just-in-time inventories all through the midwest were not depleted/disrupted.

But that's just me. Maybe you think now (up until today) was a good time for a high level national gov't official to take a vacation?

[schmita]

Uh, Kometes
That's not her job.

I'm outta this thread.

[derek]

I would also note that I responded on the list serv by asking my local govt. legal colleagues why in the world you would worry about legalities when a Cat 5 is bearing down on the most vulnerable city in the country, or why anyone in any local, state or federal legal position would worry about legalities in responding to the most profound natural disaster in my lifetime. IMO the local govt. lawyer needs to get out of the way and tell the client govt. to do whatever needs to be done to save lives and sort out the legalities later.

flarrfan, I appreciate the honest question, but how can you even ask this?

Saturday morning, the probability of Katrina passing within 60nm of NOLA was 17%. The probably that the city of N.O. was going to be sued was 100%

In this country, we've so wrapped ourselves in beaurocracy and legal b.s. that we can now respond to a disaster on the other side of the world (marginally) faster than we can respond to one in our own back yard.

[Brent]

Uh, Kometes
That's not her job.

I'm outta this thread.

Exactly. She's the one who would be calling countries asking for help etc. Not asking for oil control.

[flarrfan]

Cities are sued all the time...what matters is whether those suits have merit. I suspect (but would like to know more for sure) that there were issues raised of potential liability for injuries/deaths in the movement of elderly/ill people. Plus, where do you get the necessary ambulances? Like the school buses, in many places ambulance service is a private provider not subject to direct government control. What do you do when someone refuses to go? How do you reach the 100K ignorant/stubborn/stupid people who want to stay in the minimal time available anyway?

Lawsuits should have been the least of the concerns, though...the practical issues should have been dealt with as best as possible. My rant is based on taking Nagins at face value when he said the mandatory evacuation was being delayed by "legalities."

[derek]

Lawsuits should have been the least of the concerns, though...

I couldn't agree with you more.

[themusk]

I would also note that I responded on the list serv by asking my local govt. legal colleagues why in the world you would worry about legalities when a Cat 5 is bearing down on the most vulnerable city in the country, or why anyone in any local, state or federal legal position would worry about legalities in responding to the most profound natural disaster in my lifetime. IMO the local govt. lawyer needs to get out of the way and tell the client govt. to do whatever needs to be done to save lives and sort out the legalities later.

flarrfan, I appreciate the honest question, but how can you even ask this?

Saturday morning, the probability of Katrina passing within 60nm of NOLA was 17%. The probably that the city of N.O. was going to be sued was 100%

In this country, we've so wrapped ourselves in beaurocracy and legal b.s. that we can now respond to a disaster on the other side of the world (marginally) faster than we can respond to one in our own back yard.

States and cities have legal immunity to order evacuations. The problem lies elsewhere.

If you look at what the Mayor was saying at the time, he was supposedly looking for a way to exclude hotels and hospitals from the evacuation. He should have had such an instrument all prepared and waiting for him in his EOP. Either he ignored his EOP, or his EOP didn't have a mandatory evacuation instrument, or he was making up an excuse for a political decision.

What's more, I'm no lawyer, but I have been a pro-se plaintiff in a lawsuit, and I suspect I could draw up such a document in a matter of hours.

Something is amiss here. It could have broken down at many points. At this stage it's hard to tell at what point it did break down. But it is very unlikely that liability had anything to do with it.

[elliotj]

I am a lifelong resident of New Orleans. I do not have a political agenda as I am much more focused on the loss of life and devastation in my city. Just a few points I would like to share.

There has been much discussion about the failure of state and local leaders insofar as evacuation. I have three sisters who had to stay and work in their respective hospitals. They were all finally evacuated today and all have horrific stories about the conditions at their hospitals. They risked their lives to stay behind and care for their patients. They had no choice. Moreover, they are dedicated professionals. Many patients died due to lack of prompt response to pleas for help.

My understanding of the evacuation plan is that the lower parishes must evacuated before Orleans. Because there are limited evacuation routes out of the 5 parish area it has to be done in an orderly fashion. I know that Mayfield urged Mayor Nagin on Friday night to order mandatory evacuation. The mayor was simply following the plan that called for lower parishes to evacuate before New Orleans so as not to cause more gridlock--a situation that would only result in discouraging people from leaving.

Some people seem to think that an area the size of southeast Louisiana can be totally evacuated--down to the last person. I realize that there are stubborn people who would not leave. However, there are countless people who did not have the means to leave. This should be apparent to anyone watching the news.

We heard from the NHC and other forecasts for days that Katrina was going to Florida. As I recall, it was not until Friday that the track indicated a hit closer to New Orleans. Given the limited amount of time, it was impossible for everyone to evacuate. Should Southeast Louisiana have been evacuated on Thursday,Fiday? What is the point of this discussion?The focus now should be on saving lives.

[NFLnut]

Actually, before Katrina hit the Miami area, the NHC track showed it moving across Florida and heading up to the middle Gulf coast. NOLA was certainly within the cone, and it should not have come as a surprise! Bush even issued a state of emergency before it hit, which is VERY rare.

As I said before, trying to assign blame is pointless. But what IS certain, there was PLENTY of notice on Katrina!!

[greeng13]

You know, this "blame starts at the top" nonsense is really starting to get my goat!

And the "there's no blame at the top" stuff gets my goat. So I guess we're even.

If it makes you feel better about yourself to sit in your comfy chair, in air conditioning, pointing fingers, when you have absolutely no knowledge of what you're ranting about .. then knock yourself out!

yeah...right...

i think everyone on this thread knows a little more about the situation than those who are actually stuck in it!

why?

why even post that?...this bickering is getting to be a nuisance...i'll quote my mother (as another member did earlier today) "if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all"

and no i have not read this whole thread because after page (insert # here) it got to be a little childish.

i understand people's feelings are hurt, i also understand the whole country is hurting in some way, shape, or form as well.

[NFLnut]

yeah...right...

i think everyone on this thread knows a little more about the situation than those who are actually stuck in it!

why?

why even post that?...this bickering is getting to be a nuisance...i'll quote my mother (as another member did earlier today) "if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all"

and no i have not read this whole thread because after page (insert # here) it got to be a little childish.

i understand people's feelings are hurt, i also understand the whole country is hurting in some way, shape, or form as well.

Well, first, I'm not certain that I even understand completely what you're trying to say ..

Second, if you haven't noticed, the title of the thread is "YOU ARE BEING LIED TO"

Third, I will commend your mothers' wisdom. I would say that all of the "blame game" and posts which state that "it is <fill in blank here>'s fault" are useless. Hence the reason for my post which you quoted and responded to.

[RichG]

Great now we have a lawyer wanting evidence that the buses were under the legal control of the mayor. What did good old shakespear say about lawyers? Anyway the buses were part of the plan. However lets postulate for a moment that they weren't. Why weren't they? Well the answer would be LACK OF PLANNING. However they were part of the plan. Why is there such a fear to hold people accountable? We have seen every argument in the world on this thread trying to prevent the most obvious conclusion there is. The state and local folks screwed up and most likley the folks who held thier jobs before them.

[elliotj]

NFLnut wrote: Actually, before Katrina hit the Miami area, the NHC track showed it moving across Florida and heading up to the middle Gulf coast. NOLA was certainly within the cone, and it should not have come as a surprise! Bush even issued a state of emergency before it hit, which is VERY rare.

As I said before, trying to assign blame is pointless. But what IS certain, there was PLENTY of notice on Katrina!!


What is your point? Should every city/region evacuate when it appears in the cone? Surely there was "notice" of Katrina, but, as with every hurricane, it was a moving target. People like you just don't seem to get it. On the other hand, perhaps you have a PLAN to EVACUATE everyone in the CONE of an approaching hurricane that you would like to share with state and city officials.

No offense, but it appears you have no experience living in an area that faces hurricane threats on a fairly regular basis.

[NFLnut]

What is your point? Should every city/region evacuate when it appears in the cone? Surely there was "notice" of Katrina, but, as with every hurricane, it was a moving target. People like you just don't seem to get it. On the other hand, perhaps you have a PLAN to EVACUATE everyone in the CONE of an approaching hurricane that you would like to share with state and city officials.

No offense, but it appears you have no experience living in an area that faces hurricane threats on a fairly regular basis.

Well now .. I still have major damage to repair in my house from Hurricane Charley LAST August! I had to sit and watch Hurricanes Frances and Jeanne pummel my house with two nine foot holes in my roof for 15 hours along with 20" of rain. Try patching your roof to sustain in excess of 100-mph winds for TWO more major Hurricanes!

Don't tell me that I "have no experience living in an area that faces hurricane threats on a fairly regular basis!!" I first remember Hurricane Donna. I have gone through major Hurricanes for over 40 years. I sat and watched Hugo pass within 150 miles of my home a few years back! You'd better believe that if *I* am in the NHC cone, I take heed and either evacuate or shore up whether it's a Cat1 or a Cat5! Anyone who lives in a Hurricane prone area had better do so also. Otherwise, you may as well be playing Russian Roulette!

[soonertwister]

I just heard an interview, recorded today, of our mayor Ray Nagin. He claims that everything the governor, FEMA, and the Dept. of Homeland Security director says are lies. He called it, and I quote... "Spin for the cameras". He says that he is getting the run-around by everyone, including the president. He says that he has witnessed people dying in front of him. He has been told that help will be arriving for the past three days. People are being found on their roofs DEAD. We are not getting to these people. This is an embarrassment, and I am ashamed of this country.

TSmith274, this is just a triva request. Did you pick that name because the first 273 options for TSmith were already taken? Just curious.

Most people I know avoid three-digit numbers in their nicknames like the plague.

[NFLnut]

And additionally, I don't "have a PLAN to EVACUATE everyone in the CONE of an approaching hurricane that you would like to share with state and city officials." That's *THEIR* job, and that's what they are supposed to be planning and preparing for YEARS in advance. That's why we elect them and pay their salaries.

And yes .. I would expect the city of NOLA to have a contingency plan in case something greater than a Cat3 hit tem and the levees failed! They knew that it was NOT a matter of "IF" they would ever be hit by a >Cat3 Hurricane, it was "WHEN." The National Geographic obviously knew as of last October because they wrote in amazingly prophetic detail what would happen. If only the Mayor of NO and Gov of LA had a subscription, they would have known too. We talked about it last year when Ivan appeared headed to NOLA. We talked about how NOLA would be under water and uninhabitable for months. And now it has happened.

[elliotj]

NFLnut, I am so so sorry for your despair at having to patch 9 foot holes in your roof. I am not even able to get back to New Orleans for months to assess whether I have holes in my roof. One thing for certain is that my house has extensive water damage.

Subscriptions to National Geographic are not necessary as everyone in Southeast Louisiana has known of this risk for years.

As has been noted on this thread, funding for Corps of Engineer levee projects has been cut. Also, coastal erosion has been a major problem. While some of this has been caused by tropical systems there are other factors including that numerous canals have been dredged by oil companies. Congress recently passed an energy bill that included money for coastal restoration but it was a ridiculously hard fought battle considering what is at stake.

Please do me and others from New Orleans who share my sentiments a favor: stop blaming city and state officialst and those who did not evacuate. The situation is far too difficult and your criticism does not help.

[NFLnut]

NFLnut, I am so so sorry for your despair at having to patch 9 foot holes in your roof. I am not even able to get back to New Orleans for months to assess whether I have holes in my roof. One thing for certain is that my house has extensive water damage.

Subscriptions to National Geographic are not necessary as everyone in Southeast Louisiana has known of this risk for years.

As has been noted on this thread, funding for Corps of Engineer levee projects has been cut. Also, coastal erosion has been a major problem. While some of this has been caused by tropical systems there are other factors including that numerous canals have been dredged by oil companies. Congress recently passed an energy bill that included money for coastal restoration but it was a ridiculously hard fought battle considering what is at stake.

Please do me and others from New Orleans who share my sentiments a favor: stop blaming city and state officials and those who did not evacuate. The situation is far too difficult and your criticism does not help.

I'm sorry for your loss. I truly am. After you and the other victims are back to your normal lives, whenever that is, THEN you will have to look at what the breakdowns were. Someone truly messed up BIG time, and I think I know who it was. But he was too busy the other day blaming the Federal government. But that's for much much later.

You know, my 72 year old mom just got back into her house three weeks ago from Hurricane Charley. Her home was destroyed. My home had more than just 9 foot holes in the roof. The entire first floor had three inches of water for four days, and Frances and Jeanne both left me with the same, plus a saturated roof and wall system.

I have first hand experience at what you will be going through. So do ME a favor and next time don't make a belittling statement like that I "have no experience living in an area that faces hurricane threats on a fairly regular basis." That's what brought you the previous response. Certainly you've been through the worst (now) to hit the U.S., but I've been through MY share of major Hurricanes and major damage from them over the last 40+years and your comment was insulting, and uninformed!

Finally, as you stated, this scenario was known to be the eventual outcome of anything greater than a Cat3. It finally happened. Max Mayfield and the President urged an evac on Friday. Yet the city of NO didn't receive evac orders from Mayor Nagin until Sunday around noon.

Having said all of that: I sincerely wish you the best.

[Coldfront]

Hey, Nagin and the LA Gov. are to fault, NOT Pres. Bush.

Bush called and BEGGED Nagin & the Gov. to do evacuations asap before Katrina hit. Hell, even the head of NHC, Max, called Nagin and told him to do the evacs ASAP. How did Nagin respond? "I don't know if I have the legal authority to order an evac. I'll have to do the research..."

Adding to that, there's pics out there of 200+ schoolbuses that are underwater? WHY!!!?????!!!!! Is that Pres. Bush's fault. NO!


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/12505019.htm


[SNIP]

Katrina's threat was so acute that President Bush joined the chorus of officials who urged New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin and Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco to order a mandatory evacuation, issued Sunday morning after lower-lying areas outside the city were cleared Saturday. Bush declared a state of emergency for the area threatened by the storm, which clears the way for federal assistance, including a small fleet of much-needed boats.

[SNIP]

The criticisms of Nagin came from above as well. Numerous officials urged him to evacuate the city, but he worried about the legality of ordering people out when New Orleans has few safe hurricane shelters. Also, National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield in Miami called Nagin at home Saturday night and told him: Get people out of New Orleans.

''I could never sleep if I felt like I didn't do everything that I could to impress upon people the gravity of the situation,'' Mayfield said. ``New Orleans is never going to be the same.''

When a grim Nagin issued the mandatory evacuation order Sunday, he said: ``We are facing a storm that most of us have feared . . . God bless us.''

[SNIP]

[flarrfan]

Check the 7:55 am entry for 9/4 at http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

I think the Interdictor is saying pretty much what I have been saying. Stop politicizing this by blaming top officials when the real blame should be on the nature and structure of government and the entitlement mentality of a culture (all races and classes) which has come to depend on the government for the solution to all problems.