Everyone is Angry but lets talk logistics

[tjs107]

The things that I like about these forums are that politics rarely enters it and when it doe it is usually a well thought out response. The logistics are dead on. The fictional things we see on the tv and elsewhere give us a false sense that help swooshes in and that is all it takes.
I think that the Pres. is responding as fast as he can to try to help out. My only criticism would be that maybe they could have held help on the wayduring Katrina's path, obviously not close enough to put ships in danger, but that a little faster response time could have possobly occurred.

We choose to live in a risky area and personal responsibity is what we need for ourselves and families. Ultimately you are responsible for yourself in the wake of a disaster. Having said that, my thoughts and prayer go out to the victims of Katrina. God Bless

TJS

[bvigal]

Yes, people are dying sitting on overpasses waiting for help but here's the facts folks. Millions of tons of material are prepared to go but... first you have to transport it. That means staging areas have to be set up to receive it and distribute it. Then fuel is critical, trucks, helicopters, generators all run on fuel you have to get that there too. Where do you stockpile fuel? You need tanks to hold it in. You need pumps to pump it.

We've said for years in emergency managment prepare yourself to survive on your own for up to a week without help. You've heard it said here year after year. You just can drop 10,000 troops into New Orleans unless you can support them too. They need water, food, fuel, medical supplies to sustain their mission.

This is NOT a political problem it is simply a logistical problem complicated by the flooding. Evacuate the superdome? Absolutely! Now some of the hotheads in here tell me how you move 35 or 40,000 people quickly when you can't even get to them? At the moment you can't truck them you can't fly them and you sure can't march them out. If you have a solution I'm sure the State of Lousiana would love to hear it right now.

From someone who works with FEMA...and does this for a living...all I can say is: "Well said."

People who think all this can be solved by doing x...y...z have no CLUE what it takes logistically....and if they ever did do this for a living...well...never mind...they'll enver get it.

I agree, there's way too many uninformed opinions and simplistic solutions being tossed around about this whole situation.

Agreed with all above. As BB_Al pointed out, for some people it's part of the process of emotionally dealing with the situation.

For those who have been involved with EM, do you think when it's all over and done, a few elected officials who made politically-based decisions, ignoring the best advice of emergency managers, will suffer the political consequences in the next election?

[MBismyPlayground]

You know...how about we put blame where blame is due?

Do you really think we would be trying to figure out how to parachute troops in if all those ABLE-BODIED" people in SELA and MS would have heeded the request by officials to evacuate? I mean seriously...if you are stuck on an overpass in NOLA right now...and you obviously could get out because you walked to that overpass...whose fault is it you are there? The military's because they haven't gotten to you yet because they are too busy cutting people out of their attics (who also should have left)?Yes...I understand some people couldn't evacuate for some reason or another...but if all of those who COULD HAVE evacuated...did...do you really think we would be having this conversation?

So...whose fault is it really? It's not the governments fault you put yourself into harms way...and people have to live (or die) with the choices they have made. People like superfly (who I hope is OK)..who sat here and said it's over-hyped...I ain't leaving...now it's the government's fault he (or those like him) are suffering?

Please. If you stayed behind by choice and ignored all the pleading for you to leave...just be grateful when someone finally shows up. We are asking young men and women to risk their lives to save those who put their own lives in jeapordy in the first palce. The only blame the government has is the city government who was telling people no need to evacuate on Friday. they should be fired and put in jail. People ahd plenty of chances on Saturday. If you didn't have a car...I'm sure you could have found a ride. If not...then I am real disappointed in the people of NOLA that would not help their fellow citizens get out of the way of this storm. I suspect, however, that is a very rare case and not the rule.

ARE YOU SERIOUS??? Are they really considering jumping in troops??
That is crazy IMO... The injuries that could be substained by these guys landing in trees. debris ect would be horrific!!! I was JOKING yesterday about this........OMG

[Air Force Met]

ARE YOU SERIOUS??? Are they really considering jumping in troops??
That is crazy IMO... The injuries that could be substained by these guys landing in trees. debris ect would be horrific!!! I was JOKING yesterday about this........OMG

that's one "plan" if we can't get heavy airlift in within 48 hours. I think one airport will be open though.

[oneness]

Did anyone notice on the previous page that I said WWL report that the airport is soon to re-open? No one needs to jump, don't do it, we'll land.

[Downdraft]

No they won't jump in troops. Like I said before you can't put troops on the ground unless you can support them. None of the necessary items to maintain them are yet in place but being worked on. Orlando has now been declared the principle staging area. This means coordination and support efforts will all funnel through this checkpoint. Everyone entering the area needs to be vaccinated against hepatitis A and B, typhoid and a host of other diseases that are going to show up. We are only at the very beginning of this effort. Marine helicopter carriers are enroute, hospital ships are enroute, fuel ships are enroute, mobile army surgical hospitals are enroute. Seabees are enroute, landing fields will be constructed, portable warehouses will be constructed, tent cities will be constructed, mass care feeding shelters will be constructed. Remember close to a million people are already in shelters and they have to be cared for too. You are watching the single greatest humanitarian rescue and relief mission in the history of our country unfolding before your eyes.

[MBismyPlayground]

ARE YOU SERIOUS??? Are they really considering jumping in troops??
That is crazy IMO... The injuries that could be substained by these guys landing in trees. debris ect would be horrific!!! I was JOKING yesterday about this........OMG

that's one "plan" if we can't get heavy airlift in within 48 hours. I think one airport will be open though.

Well,you know those commanders in the 82nd.... they are just rubbing their hands together, foreseeing another brownie point.

[Persepone]

I need to edit/amend my posting—especially in reply to Downdraft and Air Force Met (see below)

Downdraft wrote: “Sorry to disagree but your wrong. The command and control of this situation is now under the total authority of the commanding general First Army. It is not an issue of the State or authorities to request help. That is out of their hands now. While everyone involved are active partners it is very understood only the United States Military can accomplish the tasks necessary. This 3 star General has the authority to do whatever is required to correct the situation.”

Downdraft—If the situation is now under Army control, then I stand corrected. However, this is NOT what is being reported on the news here.

I DO believe that the military does have the leadership, the knowledge, the planning and the ability to handle the situation. I do not think that the local city and state governments have the leadership capability or the “smarts” to deal with the situation and they have shown a remarkable incompetence from even before the storm hit. Again, this is based on limited news reports, etc. but I certainly have not heard or had others report that either the mayor or the governor stand up and display much leadership. And, from my vantage point, it looked (and still looks, by the way) as though the US Military is sort of standing by ready to jump in and help the minute the Governor makes the formal requests. But if that has already happened, or if it does not need to happen, then I stand corrected.

What we are hearing on the broadcast news. (actually very little of that) does not indicate that the miltary is involved in overall coordination.

And I also need to answer Air Force Met who said: “So...whose fault is it really? It's not the governments fault you put yourself into harms way...and people have to live (or die) with the choices they have made. People like superfly (who I hope is OK)..who sat here and said it's over-hyped...I ain't leaving...now it's the government's fault he (or those like him) are suffering? “
[continued quotation]”Please. If you stayed behind by choice and ignored all the pleading for you to leave...just be grateful when someone finally shows up. We are asking young men and women to risk their lives to save those who put their own lives in jeapordy in the first palce. The only blame the government has is the city government who was telling people no need to evacuate on Friday. they should be fired and put in jail. People ahd plenty of chances on Saturday. If you didn't have a car...I'm sure you could have found a ride. If not...then I am real disappointed in the people of NOLA that would not help their fellow citizens get out of the way of this storm. I suspect, however, that is a very rare case and not the rule.”

Air Force Met, I absolutely agree with the sentence that I underlined. I am NOT blaming the US government (see response to Downdraft).

And yes, I agree that there is personal responsibility among those who defied a mandatory evacuation who had the means and ability to evacuate and chose not to do so.

I do believe, however, that it was very, very, very morally wrong for the Mayor of New Orleans to have not issued the mandatory evacuation order much earlier—at least when National Hurricane Center “begged” him to do so. Those 12 hours may have been crucial in terms of getting tourists out, people who did have the means of getting out but who were discouraged by the traffic, etc. or those who would have had to make special arrangements to transport an elderly relative, etc. or who might have had to arrange “carpools, etc.” Those extra 12 hours could have been used by church groups, etc. to arrange carpools. By the time the mandatory evacuation was issued, there was no time left for that type of arrangements.

I’m also rather surprised that the military did not impose martial law immediately and did not put armed troops on the streets to prevent looting, to guard things like gun stores, and so forth. While I recognize that the impressive work of military rescue units, I am surprised at the lack of “policing” units. In the end, I think that a tremendous amount of damage was done to New Orleans as a city by their state of total anarchy which has been beamed worldwide on TV. For many people, New Orleans will never again be considered as a tourist destination. While that does not affect individual safety, it may have a huge impact on the economic viability of the city and on the 80% of its citizens who obeyed the evacuation orders, etc. Perhaps their interests, and the interests of other law-abiding citizens of New Orleans should have been taken into account. But I am not in a position to know why the decision was made not to do that police work early.

One observation, that is perhaps off the point here, but watching TV footage, I am struck by the number of obviously ill and disabled people being pulled out of attics. Yes there are able-bodied people in New Orleans, but there seems to be an incredible number of the very elderly frail, people with oxygen tubes in their noses and other medical equipment attached, one-legged people, etc. being carried out of attics. Doesn’t New Orleans have any type of registry for those people? Was any effort made to get them evacuated? Obviously they could not just hop in the car... And even if they had families, etc. they would have required specialized transport. Was it available? Was there any effort to evacuate those people before the mandatory evacuation? Common sense says they need “extra time” to evacuate those people. If they “refused” or “disobeyed” evacuation, that is different, but somehow from the sheer numbers of them, I have to wonder if perhaps they weren’t left to fend for themselves. If so, that is on the Mayor’s head as well....Was his message, “if you are old, sick and poor, we don’t care about you?”

Again, I commend the military response, but I think the city and state response was disgraceful—and it certainly looks to me as though the US Military was called in much later in the game than they might have been.

[MBismyPlayground]

I was listening to something about martial law last night, part of an interview with the govenor. Now I don't know much about martial law or the laws of LA but I gathered from what she said, that Martial Law is not "allowed" in LA????? For martial law to take effect, it has to be requested by the govenor. So the military is basically sitting and waiting.
The Nat. Guard is sorta controlled by the state. The active military is not.
Of course, I may have misunderstood but...

[inotherwords]

Until I listened to the NO TV feed on Fri/Sat/Sunday, I was not aware of what had to happen first in order for the mayor to be able to order a mandatory evacuation. It is not as simple as it sounds.

Also, my mom is in her early 80s and I had to physically pick her up and put her in the car to evacuate for Charley last year. She and I both were under mandatory evacuation. One thing that's important to understand is that there are tons of people who are not going to leave no matter what is said buy whom or when. If they don't have family, if they don't watch the news or comprehend the seriousness of the situation, and if they do but they know they can't take Fluffy, their only companion, with them--they're not going to leave.

We can flail our arms around and point fingers left and right, but the fact is that this is not a perfect world, and to mobilize a rescue effort this big under unprecedented circumstances is very difficult. Yes, there are difficulties in coordination with red tape, etc., when you consider state and federal resources are involved and need to determine who is in charge. But I really do believe that officials are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and far be it from me to second-guess what they're doing. I don't think we know or understand even a fraction of what these people have been doing behind the scenes, so how can we sit here from the safety of our homes and point our fingers at them and tell these people who are going in to "fix" a possibly unfixable situation under what is equivalent to wartime conditions that they're not doing their jobs well enough?

I'm sorry, but I just don't think some people are being very fair. At all.

[Downdraft]

Perhaps an explanation of how the system works would be helpful. The State of Lousiana requested a federal declaration of disaster from the federal government. The President signed this declaration BEFORE Katrina even struck. FEMA is powerless until the disaster declaration is in effect so by signing it early it allowed FEMA to begin coordinating the logistics of relief. FEMA is charged by law with overseeing disaster mitigation. Perhaps I was misleading in my post. The CG of First Army is not a military governor. His responsibilty lies in ensuring that all military assets necessary to assist are provided and available. He's been given the authority by the Commander-in-Chief to utilize whatever assets are necessary from any of the armed forces to assist. Our constitution does not allow the federal government to just walk into the State of Louisana and take it over and Thank God it doesn't. That would be a grave threat to our liberty and way of life. Martial law is just that. It empowers the military to provide by whatever means the power to protect life and property. The problem simply folks is the networks aren't showing the efforts being made behind the scenes. I haven't seen one report of the staging areas being prepared, of the military transports being loaded, the efforts to get the pipeline moving. I hate to say it but please remember watching t.v. that "if it bleeds it leads" on television. Of course they are going to show the looters but remember the coast guard and it's rescue swimmers have saved 1259 people since midnight alone. WE ARE a great country lets all concentrate on the heroism being displayed and on the efforts being made. While I am personally dismayed over many of the things going on and previous decisions being made I am overwhelmed with a sense of pride in how our Country is coming together to handle it. Our entire nation is mobilizing to deal with this. I see it here at home I'm sure you see it where you live. No one is alone in this no one is forgetten. It just takes time.

[Rory]

Amphibious buses would be able to go through the water to get to them and even go on roads to get them to a safe place. I know they have them in Baltimore and Boston, I don't know about other cities.


EDIT: Someone just told me they have them in Austin too.

[gratefulnole]

I watch the homeland security press conference a little while ago and the federal gov't is now in high gear on many different fronts to provide assistance. I got the impression that the two Louisiana Senators have taken over from the Governor in leading recovery efforts.
The state of Florida yesterday sent convoys of both state DEP law enforcement personel and Fish and Wildlife officers with boats, ATVs and trailors of supplies to Mississipi. Today a convoy of Tallahassee police and Leon county sheriffs deputies also towing trailors and ATVs left for Mississippi. This is happening throughout our state. The Florida Dept. of Health is preparing to send personel tomorrow to help. Obviously we have great experience in these situations and want to help those states just like they have helped us before. The state of Texas and its local gov'ts are similiarly going to great lengths to do everything they can. I am sure this happening all over the southeast. I beleive tomorrow the relief efforts will be greatly improved in the effected areas. The country is starting to come together to do everything they can to help.
I also got the impression from Louisiana Senator Landrieu that the money(billions) that they have been asking for years to help mitigate these problems will now be provided.
After seeing Governor Blanco over and over looking like she was in over head it was refreshing to see Senator Landrieu with a positive, determined and reassuring attitude that they will get through this.

[traciepb]

I flew into Tallahassee this morning. When leaving the airport, I had to wait for a caravan of ambulances and fire dept trucks to pass by before I could make my turn. I saw no less than 100 vehicles, and that probably wasn't all of them. They were from numerous Florida and Alabama counties.