YOU ARE BEING LIED TO

[RichG]

Joe Allbaugh the former FEMA director was against using the superdome for now are the obvious reasons. Guess what, the local government overrulled him. Let's go over this again, local and state governments are responsible for evacuating, planning, and taking care of their people in a emergency like this. Fema role is a backup role. That is why in hurricane regions they tell you to have food and water to last a week or more. That is how long it will take to get fema to the disaster area. Again if we are talking about changing the constitution and eliminating states and cities as political entities that is another discussion. Some of your agendas are transparent so give it a rest. Unless you understand how are system of government works please do a little research before you make off the cuff comments.

[lwg8tr]

Sad to say, but I wonder if this really could have been prevented at all. I do think there has been many mistakes by the NOLA emergency management. But I did read one time that it would take 3 days to fully evacuate NOLA before a storm. Could there really have been a good, smooth outcome when you have half a million people living in a city below sea level? Seems like quite a bit of their population is impoverished to the point that they couldn't have left if they wanted to.

Bingo!!!! Many folks couldn’t have left if they wanted to. That NO mayor and that hack Governor are truly useless. Even Mary Landrieu the senior Senator reigned in her first instinct to whine and complain and is doing something constructive. That NO mayor should be thrown from office at first chance. First his ineffective and ineffectual response to the coming threat and then his wild eye ranting about thousands dead floating in the streets just fueled the panic. Did the local LA politicians gin up the mobs and become an impediment, that's not even debatable. The help is coming and will flow there like the lake waters but we are 4 days out from a Cat 4 storm hitting an area with millions of people who effectively lived behind a moat. So let's all chill.. and give to the Red Cross and we can ALL get through this, Democrat and Republican alike.

[r_u_stuck2]

[quote="Air Force Met"][quote="r_u_stuck2"]



I won't address the rest of your little agenda...but I will address this.


I don't know that I have an agenda. I merely posted what I found for discussion. I did not comment.

What I find truly amazing on this board is the attacks on everyone who posts. Obviously one reason that I rarely post. There are ways to express comments without attacks.

The situation is a mess. Someone has to be in charge to fix it.

[Air Force Met]

I won't address the rest of your little agenda...but I will address this.


I don't know that I have an agenda. I merely posted what I found for discussion. I did not comment.

What I find truly amazing on this board is the attacks on everyone who posts. Obviously one reason that I rarely post. There are ways to express comments without attacks.

The situation is a mess. Someone has to be in charge to fix it.

The only attacks are coming on people who do not know what they are talking about. This is not a willy-nilly free for all board...as many on the net are. I addressed the obvious flaw...and it is fact. The reason we are looking for someone to blame is the local and state officials did not do their job of getting people out before the disaster (which was part of the FEMA plan...BTW). The reason we are looking for someone to blame is that many people chose NOT to evacuate when they were finally ordered.

If 100,000 people stay when they are ordered to leave...and they don't...when hundreds of school buses are not used to drive through the neighborhood and load up as many people as possible before the hurricane...whose fault is that? The feds? Nope...the locals. They had a plan...we exercised it last year (in the summer of '04)...they did not follow the plan. Period.

[fwbbreeze]

I won't address the rest of your little agenda...but I will address this.


I don't know that I have an agenda. I merely posted what I found for discussion. I did not comment.

What I find truly amazing on this board is the attacks on everyone who posts. Obviously one reason that I rarely post. There are ways to express comments without attacks.

The situation is a mess. Someone has to be in charge to fix it.

The only attacks are coming on people who do not know what they are talking about. This is not a willy-nilly free for all board...as many on the net are. I addressed the obvious flaw...and it is fact. The reason we are looking for someone to blame is the local and state officials did not do their job of getting people out before the disaster (which was part of the FEMA plan...BTW). The reason we are looking for someone to blame is that many people chose NOT to evacuate when they were finally ordered.

If 100,000 people stay when they are ordered to leave...and they don't...when hundreds of school buses are not used to drive through the neighborhood and load up as many people as possible before the hurricane...whose fault is that? The feds? Nope...the locals. They had a plan...we exercised it last year (in the summer of '04)...they did not follow the plan. Period.

This is about the 15th time AFM has said this...it is blatently obvious that some refuse to listen and hear the truth. Rather blame the President than the actual culprits of the mess in NO. THe state of LA and city of NO failed their people...plain and simple

fwbbreeze

[FloridaHawk82]

All excellent points... I won't begin to say that I understand all of the legalities, but Nagin's implication that there is a lot of spin has some serious merit.

An Example: "Insisting that aid is coming as fast as possible, Chertoff said, "You can't fly helicopters in a hurricane. You can't drive trucks in a hurricane."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but hundreds of Power trucks from companies all across the country were STAGED AND READY to move in IN ANTICIPATION of this. I certainly DO NOT think that Chertoff is entirely to blame, but illogical spin like this is what irritates citizens. FWIW, I am a Republican, so this is NOT politiically motivated.

This is obviously a tragic lack of planning, or following the practiced plan, on ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT, The City of New Orleans, The State of Louisiana, and The Federal Government. I have to agree the the majority of the mistakes were certainly made by the local and state governments by not getting everyone out and FOLLOWING THE PLAN. I live in Iowa, and I have been very aware that New Orleans was the single highest risk location in the US for a natural disaster. No other city in the US was/is even close...

[Jim Hughes]

All excellent points... I won't begin to say that I understand all of the legalities, but Nagin's implication that there is a lot of spin has some serious merit.

An Example: "Insisting that aid is coming as fast as possible, Chertoff said, "You can't fly helicopters in a hurricane. You can't drive trucks in a hurricane."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but hundreds of Power trucks from companies all across the country were STAGED AND READY to move in IN ANTICIPATION of this. I certainly DO NOT think that Chertoff is entirely to blame, but illogical spin like this is what irritates citizens. FWIW, I am a Republican, so this is NOT politiically motivated.

This is obviously a tragic lack of planning, or following the practiced plan, on ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT, The City of New Orleans, The State of Louisiana, and The Federal Government. I have to agree the the majority of the mistakes were certainly made by the local and state governments by not getting everyone out and FOLLOWING THE PLAN. I live in Iowa, and I have been very aware that New Orleans was the single highest risk location in the US for a natural disaster. No other city in the US was/is even close...

Very well put and very fair....which is very unfortunately hard to come by these days. I have stayed out of these debates since day one because of the politics involved.

This forum's posts have continually been politically slanted from one way or the other and you can look at demographics.. sex ...race etc.. and see this if you have an ounce of sense.

Politics get involved in every one's perspective and I do not care what they say. This is why I am an registered independent voter who has voted on both sides conistently...not just once or twice.

I come from very strong entrenched republican family who will tell you that they are fair minded but they have not voted for a democrat since JFK. My wife...and her family are hard core democrats. They say the same thing but they never vote Republican.

The democrats are going to blame the White House and not the state nor the people and the republicans are not going to blame Bush. It's as simple as that. Black and white. And people wonder why we have so much turmoil all the time.

Sooner or later we have got to grow up as a society and ciriticize our own politcal affiliation every once in a while. I realize some will respond to this post and say that they do. But they are the small minority and most do not.

Especially when a national crisis/debate occurs. It can be sex in the White House/lying under oath..Or Arms for hostges/Iran Contra. They selfishly disregard everything for their own party's keepsake. It has nothing to do with the good of the country any more.


Jim

[FloridaHawk82]

All excellent points... I won't begin to say that I understand all of the legalities, but Nagin's implication that there is a lot of spin has some serious merit.

An Example: "Insisting that aid is coming as fast as possible, Chertoff said, "You can't fly helicopters in a hurricane. You can't drive trucks in a hurricane."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but hundreds of Power trucks from companies all across the country were STAGED AND READY to move in IN ANTICIPATION of this. I certainly DO NOT think that Chertoff is entirely to blame, but illogical spin like this is what irritates citizens. FWIW, I am a Republican, so this is NOT politiically motivated.

This is obviously a tragic lack of planning, or following the practiced plan, on ALL LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT, The City of New Orleans, The State of Louisiana, and The Federal Government. I have to agree the the majority of the mistakes were certainly made by the local and state governments by not getting everyone out and FOLLOWING THE PLAN. I live in Iowa, and I have been very aware that New Orleans was the single highest risk location in the US for a natural disaster. No other city in the US was/is even close...

Very well put and very fair....which is very unfortunately hard to come by these days. I have stayed out of these debates since day one because of the politics involved.

This forum's posts have continually been politically slanted from one way or the other and you can look at demographics.. sex ...race etc.. and see this if you have an ounce of sense.

Politics get involved in every one's perspective and I do not care what they say. This is why I am an registered independent voter who has voted on both sides conistently...not just once or twice.

I come from very strong entrenched republican family who will tell you that they are fair minded but they have not voted for a democrat since JFK. My wife...and her family are hard core democrats. They say the same thing but they never vote Republican.

The democrats are going to blame the White House and not the state nor the people and the republicans are not going to blame Bush. It's as simple as that. Black and white. And people wonder why we have so much turmoil all the time.

Sooner or later we have got to grow up as a society and ciriticize our own politcal affiliation every once in a while. I realize some will respond to this post and say that they do. But they are the small minority and most do not.

Especially when a national crisis/debate occurs. It can be sex in the White House/lying under oath..Or Arms for hostges/Iran Contra. They selfishly disregard everything for their own party's keepsake. It has nothing to do with the good of the country any more.

Jim

Jim, also VERY well put. I am actually a very moderate Republican. I've been eligible to vote in 6 Presidential elections, and have voted Republican 4 times, and Democrat twice. There is such a blur now between the parties that they are all one big glob of corporate puppets at this point, which is why I agree with Nader's viewpoints on campaign finance reform, which is NOT a very Republican thing to do!

Politics, race, religion, etc. should be kept out of this issue, and probably all important issues in America.

[Stephanie]

Honestly I don't know what happen. I think all levels of government is responsible for what is happening in NO. Somewhere, somehow things didn't work out like they thought. Did they not think NO was going to take a big hit? Were they in denial? I don't know. I don't understand what is going on. All I know is that I am sicken by the t.v. I do know help is on its way but will it be in time.

I agree with that.

We are amassing vasts amounts of money for the rebuild from people all across the country through the Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc. That's all fine and dandy, but the basic necessities are not being met NOW. Who will we build rebuilding for? I know that the calvary is coming but at least a portion of them needed to be there within a day afterwards with the basic necessities. THAT'S the main problem and what has to be dealt with NOW!

[vacanechaser]

[quote="TSmith274"] He says that he has witnessed people dying in front of him. quote]

Thats rich.... All the news coverage I have seen and herd say they have not seen the sorry sack anywhere near the city.... the folks there in the streets say they have not seen him and if they do, they were gonna take care of him... IMO, he is full of it and has not shown his face anywhere near the city... Funny that the governor of the state holds the conferences and is in front of the cameras... all of his have been on the phone from "Baton Rouge" or so he says...

Jesse V. Bass III
http://www.vastormphoto.com

[DoctorHurricane2003]

I'm a Democrat....I'm a very far left Democrat at that. Even last year when Ivan ravaged my hometown, and have the other 3 ravage my home state, I supported Jeb Bush and thought he did a great job handling that as well as he could. FEMA and the federal government failed last year...I can tell you first handedly that FEMA has recalled aid where people need it the most in Pensacola...and you want me to believe that the Feds are innocent and doing everything they can? Pfft

The same situation applies to Louisiana. The governor has done everything she can. What amazes me the most is that everyone who wants the blame to lay on the LA governor has mentioned that it was her and the New Orleans mayor's fault that people chose not to leave....excuse me? If people see a category 3, 4, or 5, and decide not to leave...it doesn't matter how much you tell them to leave, they aren't going to. People are stubborn, period. The blame for those people do not lie on Blanco or Nagin, but it does lie on the people who were idiotic enough not to leave.

Blanco called on people to leave way before the New Orleans city council ever mentionede anything. In terms of federal/state/local officials, here is their rating of response to Katrina:

Federal/FEMA: Poor Reasoning: They could have done more, period. They could have had a lot more teams in place to relieve the victims of this storm. They also could have decided not to slash the FEMA budget. Come on now, this should be common sense.

State/Blanco: Good Reasoning: The state has done all that they can. Blanco has called on the national guard, has made arrangements for troops and evacuation locations in other states, called evacuations before the city did, begged everyone to leave, etc. The state does not have the right to call in the army, etc, and cannot call in the navy when the mississippi river is not clear.

Local/Nagin: Fair Reasoning: He has been okay. He directed people to find food, he allowed people to loot for food, and he is with the people. The problem lies with being too complacent in the beginning, and letting his emotions get to him in the aftermath...but at least he isn't completely failing the citizens.


People want magic things to happen with the state and local officials in this aftermath with no regard to law or hazards in the area currently in place...and its not going to happen.

[FloridaHawk82]

I'm a Democrat....I'm a very far left Democrat at that. Even last year when Ivan ravaged my hometown, and have the other 3 ravage my home state, I supported Jeb Bush and thought he did a great job handling that as well as he could. FEMA and the federal government failed last year...I can tell you first handedly that FEMA has recalled aid where people need it the most in Pensacola...and you want me to believe that the Feds are innocent and doing everything they can? Pfft

The same situation applies to Louisiana. The governor has done everything she can. What amazes me the most is that everyone who wants the blame to lay on the LA governor has mentioned that it was her and the New Orleans mayor's fault that people chose not to leave....excuse me? If people see a category 3, 4, or 5, and decide not to leave...it doesn't matter how much you tell them to leave, they aren't going to. People are stubborn, period. The blame for those people do not lie on Blanco or Nagin, but it does lie on the people who were idiotic enough not to leave.

Blanco called on people to leave way before the New Orleans city council ever mentionede anything. In terms of federal/state/local officials, here is their rating of response to Katrina:

Federal/FEMA: Poor Reasoning: They could have done more, period. They could have had a lot more teams in place to relieve the victims of this storm. They also could have decided not to slash the FEMA budget. Come on now, this should be common sense.

State/Blanco: Good Reasoning: The state has done all that they can. Blanco has called on the national guard, has made arrangements for troops and evacuation locations in other states, called evacuations before the city did, begged everyone to leave, etc. The state does not have the right to call in the army, etc, and cannot call in the navy when the mississippi river is not clear.

Local/Nagin: Fair Reasoning: He has been okay. He directed people to find food, he allowed people to loot for food, and he is with the people. The problem lies with being too complacent in the beginning, and letting his emotions get to him in the aftermath...but at least he isn't completely failing the citizens.

People want magic things to happen with the state and local officials in this aftermath with no regard to law or hazards in the area currently in place...and its not going to happen.

I believe your statement "The state does not have the right to call in the army, etc" is incorrect. IMHO, Blanco should have authorized the use of ACTIVE Military LONG AGO. In case you are not aware, most members of the National Guard are NOT full-time... most were working as accountants, labors, etc. When the National Guard is called up, it simply takes time to gather the resources and personnel. THIS IS WHY Blanco should have authorized FEDERAL troops... Maybe she has a good reason why she hasn't, but I haven't heard it yet.

As far as Nagin/City Govt. is is documented that the President and people at the NHC (Mayfield) were pleading with Nagin to accelerate the evacuation and do more... As of last Friday, he seemed reluctant to press harder for the mandatory evacs. How many tens of thousands of people WANTED to leave, but were unable? Why weren't they bussed out? To ANYWHERE but the below sea level death pit of NO. Again, maybe good reasons or maybe just complacency? Nagin is doing the right thing to scream as loud as he can, but his administration DID NOT perform well enough for his citizens, IMHO.

As far as the Feds, Bush himself said today that the results are unacceptable. They have a 3-Star General on a street corner directing the OPS and Natl. Guard is finally starting to flow in heavily... do we think the N Guard drug their feet? Drove under the speed limit intentionally? The bottom line is that the ONLY way the Feds could have put a quick force in there was with Federal Troops... Blanco has not/will not authorize it. Is there more the Feds could have/should have done? Without a doubt, but they have to follow the Constitutional rules, whether we like it or not. Our Constitution currently dissalows the Feds to send in Active Troops in these situations UNLESS AUTHORIZED by the State's Governor.

[NFLnut]

I guess that I'll defer to the Mayor because he's there, and I'm not. I just hope he's not trying to find a scapegoat .. other than himself.

Remember, had the Mayor made the request for mandatory evacuations on Saturday when we all woke up to a Cat 5 instead of waiting until Sunday, the loss of life could have been MUCH, much lower!

[FloridaHawk82]

I guess that I'll defer to the Mayor because he's there, and I'm not. I just hope he's not trying to find a scapegoat .. other than himself.

Remember, had the Mayor made the request for mandatory evacuations on Saturday when we all woke up to a Cat 5 instead of waiting until Sunday, the loss of life could have been MUCH, much lower!

Exactly, when the head of the NHC (Mayfield) personally calls you on Friday and PLEADS with you to order mandatory evacs, YOU DO IT unless you feel that you somehow know more about hurricanes than the collective intelligence of the NHC?

[artist]

Doctorhurricane2003 - I am sorry - the residents of a city take their cue from their lcoal government when it comes to situations like this - everyone wants to believe they would not mislead them and the lack of concern in the beginning led to that feeling by many there I am sure. And by the time concern was shown - which wasn't even that apparent - seemed more they were being forced to call an evacuation - the NWS issued that dire warning to all to get out or suffer the consequences. Now how many of those in the poorer parts of town ever had an opportunity to even see that? Or even those that don't follow the weather as we do.

[alicia-w]

the federal government should have steped in 24 hrs PRIOR to the hurricane making landfall. the enormity of the devestation shouldn't really have surprised anybody. what we are seeing is a complete breakdown on the part of the US response effort. or lack there of.

this is shaming as a US citizen.

Obviously you haven't read up on the law of this country. The federal government does not have the right to step in prior to a natural disaster. Please try and educate yourself before posting this kind of crap.

Actually, that's not entirely true. The government declared a statement on federal disaster assistance on 27 August before the storm (for Louisiana, Alabama, Florida, & Mississippi) actually hit so they had the ability to pre-position assets like FEMA there.

[NFLnut]

... and if we choose to live on the coast, during Hurricane season, then it is OUR responsibility to stay informed and evacuate or suffer the consequences!

Having said that, my heart is broken for what happened in NO. As much as we all feared NO someday taking "the big one" and the ensuing flood, I don't think most of us ever considered anything like this!

[FloridaHawk82]

the federal government should have steped in 24 hrs PRIOR to the hurricane making landfall. the enormity of the devestation shouldn't really have surprised anybody. what we are seeing is a complete breakdown on the part of the US response effort. or lack there of.

this is shaming as a US citizen.

Obviously you haven't read up on the law of this country. The federal government does not have the right to step in prior to a natural disaster. Please try and educate yourself before posting this kind of crap.

Actually, that's not entirely true. The government declared a state of emergency before the storm actually hit so they had the ability to pre-position assets like FEMA there.

Alicia, FEMA, but NOT Federal Troops... That HAS to be ordered/authorized specifically by the Governor of the state. FEMA / Red Cross / Power Companies / Joe with his motorboat all are OK... just not Federal Troops... Do I think this is right? Not entirely, and I hope some laws change... but that IS the law, and the President is bound by them.

[mf_dolphin]

Obviously you haven't read up on the law of this country. The federal government does not have the right to step in prior to a natural disaster. Please try and educate yourself before posting this kind of crap.

Actually, that's not entirely true. The government declared a state of emergency before the storm actually hit so they had the ability to pre-position assets like FEMA there.

Before you say "not true" how about reading the thread. We were talking about Federal Military action. The Federal Government cannot put military troops on the ground until the Govenor requests it. FEMA did start the ball rolling early. Where do you think the Coast Guard crews came from that flew all day Monday and every day since? Where did the Navy ships come from that are off-shore with more on the way?

[alicia-w]

I read the frickin thread.