Everyone is Angry but lets talk logistics

[Downdraft]

Yes, people are dying sitting on overpasses waiting for help but here's the facts folks. Millions of tons of material are prepared to go but... first you have to transport it. That means staging areas have to be set up to receive it and distribute it. Then fuel is critical, trucks, helicopters, generators all run on fuel you have to get that there too. Where do you stockpile fuel? You need tanks to hold it in. You need pumps to pump it.

We've said for years in emergency managment prepare yourself to survive on your own for up to a week without help. You've heard it said here year after year. You just can drop 10,000 troops into New Orleans unless you can support them too. They need water, food, fuel, medical supplies to sustain their mission.

This is NOT a political problem it is simply a logistical problem complicated by the flooding. Evacuate the superdome? Absolutely! Now some of the hotheads in here tell me how you move 35 or 40,000 people quickly when you can't even get to them? At the moment you can't truck them you can't fly them and you sure can't march them out. If you have a solution I'm sure the State of Lousiana would love to hear it right now.

[x-y-no]

Exactly.

Well said.

[wwicko]

Does anyone know the area in square miles that will require emergency assistance?

[LaBreeze]

Much thanks Downdraft. It's so nice to see that some on the outside understand what has really happened. Like nothing before and, we pray, like nothing to ever happen again. Thanks for understanding and thanks for the prayers that all of you are offering.

[BocaGirl]

Thank you Downdraft. I know from working in CERT that the logistics if any mission are the ultimate test of its success or failure. I have heard that that the military, Red Cross, Salvation Army and others are mobilizing right now.

I think we're conditioned to Hollywood solutions. On the screen, some handsome hunk would come blazing in with a technological marvel that would have the water drained in hours. People's homes would be repaired, lives would go on as before and the ending would be picture perfect. Deep down, we're all hoping that happens.

Instead, we're faced with the inevitable wrangling between agencies and personalties and tv stations competing for ratings (how many times can we see the Walmart looters?) as the real folks get the machine moving behind the scenes to do the real work. The real work won't be pretty.

(Where was Dyn-O-Mat when we needed him?......)

BocaGirl
Barbara

[Persepone]

But there are solutions. And it sounds as if there is not a lot of coordination.

Elsewhere on this board, for example, there is a posting about EMT certified airboat owners--some quantity of them--in Florida who are trying to figure out who to contact to offer their services.

There are other things we, outside the area, are hearing that sound as though insufficient thought was given to the logistics. In the end, I think that evacuating New Orleans is going to need a Dunkirk-like effort--and they should be staging that flotilla somewhere now. The calls should already have gone out, the safe staging area determined, etc.

(For youngsters, the reference to Dunkirk is when the British sent small boats across the English Channel (some of the roughest water in the world on a good day) to pull their soldiers off the beach in France under heavy arial bombardment by the Germans. Over several days, the "little boats" pulled 330,000 men off the beaches in France. The beach at Dunkirk was on a shallow slope so no large boat could get near to the actual beaches where the men were. Therefore, smaller boats were needed to take on board men who would then be transferred to a larger boat based further off shore. 800 of these legendary "little ships" were used. It is thought that the smallest boat to make the journey across the Channel was the Tamzine - an 18 feet open topped fishing boat now on display at the Imperial War Museum, London.)

There seem to be an awful lot of unanswered logistics questions here and a lack of coordination. What seems most frustrating is that there are solutions out there, but the local and state officials are not asking for the help and so these are not being mobilized.

I have no idea, of course, what the truth of the matter is--but it seems as if the rescue efforts are disorganized at best. Yes it is a question of logistics, but the logistics depend upon "political" decisions. The Federal Government cannot just "send in the marines" unless the State requests the assistance, I believe.

This is complicated, of course, by the sheer geographical extent of the disaster.

As for the comment about people needing to prepare to survive on your own for up to a week without help, I agree. But in this case, I can guess that we're dealing with large numbers of people who were too elderly, young, ignorant, poor, stupid or whatever to do that in many cases. And then there are apparently numbers of tourists (including foreign tourists?) who did not begin to know how to prepare, etc. And there probably were a lot who did prepare, but whose "preparations" were lost in rising waters, or when they totally lost the structures that contained their "preparations."

[x-y-no]

I think we're conditioned to Hollywood solutions. On the screen, some handsome hunk would come blazing in with a technological marvel that would have the water drained in hours. People's homes would be repaired, lives would go on as before and the ending would be picture perfect. Deep down, we're all hoping that happens.

BocaGirl
Barbara

So you're saying we should send in Alec Baldwin?

[simplyme]

So you're saying we should send in Alec Baldwin?

If he's got an airboat, hell yeah!

[Downdraft]

There isn't any country in the world better equipped, better trained, better motivated or better at handling this situation then our own. Plain in simple this Is the greatest natural disaster to have EVER struck the United States. There isn't a police officer, firefighter, nurse, doctor or member of the military that wouldn't be there right now if we were told to go. Friends of mine that are members of our County's special hazards team near Orlando are already in Mississippi and have been since right after the storm.

[EDR1222]

People definately need to prepare themselves as best they can at least for a week after a hurricane or longer if possible. Its just too bad more people didn't heed the warnings and leave. New Orleans is unique as we all know.

[Downdraft]

But there are solutions. And it sounds as if there is not a lot of coordination.

Elsewhere on this board, for example, there is a posting about EMT certified airboat owners--some quantity of them--in Florida who are trying to figure out who to contact to offer their services.

There are other things we, outside the area, are hearing that sound as though insufficient thought was given to the logistics. In the end, I think that evacuating New Orleans is going to need a Dunkirk-like effort--and they should be staging that flotilla somewhere now. The calls should already have gone out, the safe staging area determined, etc.

(For youngsters, the reference to Dunkirk is when the British sent small boats across the English Channel (some of the roughest water in the world on a good day) to pull their soldiers off the beach in France under heavy arial bombardment by the Germans. Over several days, the "little boats" pulled 330,000 men off the beaches in France. The beach at Dunkirk was on a shallow slope so no large boat could get near to the actual beaches where the men were. Therefore, smaller boats were needed to take on board men who would then be transferred to a larger boat based further off shore. 800 of these legendary "little ships" were used. It is thought that the smallest boat to make the journey across the Channel was the Tamzine - an 18 feet open topped fishing boat now on display at the Imperial War Museum, London.)

There seem to be an awful lot of unanswered logistics questions here and a lack of coordination. What seems most frustrating is that there are solutions out there, but the local and state officials are not asking for the help and so these are not being mobilized.

I have no idea, of course, what the truth of the matter is--but it seems as if the rescue efforts are disorganized at best. Yes it is a question of logistics, but the logistics depend upon "political" decisions. The Federal Government cannot just "send in the marines" unless the State requests the assistance, I believe.

This is complicated, of course, by the sheer geographical extent of the disaster.

As for the comment about people needing to prepare to survive on your own for up to a week without help, I agree. But in this case, I can guess that we're dealing with large numbers of people who were too elderly, young, ignorant, poor, stupid or whatever to do that in many cases. And then there are apparently numbers of tourists (including foreign tourists?) who did not begin to know how to prepare, etc. And there probably were a lot who did prepare, but whose "preparations" were lost in rising waters, or when they totally lost the structures that contained their "preparations."

Sorry to disagree but your wrong. The command and control of this situation is now under the total authority of the commanding general First Army. It is not an issue of the State or authorities to request help. That is out of their hands now. While everyone involved are active partners it is very understood only the United States Military can accomplish the tasks necessary. This 3 star General has the authority to do whatever is required to correct the situation.

[gratefulnole]

IMHO there a severe lack of leadership in this situation.

[feederband]

IMHO there a severe lack of leadership in this situation.

This is turning out to be beyond comperhension....There are steps that have to be taking ....Everything that can be done is being done...Having gone though storms my self last year...We were agravated that it took days to get the trees out of the streets so we could get out...No power for weeks... These people are going though this at 100 times worse then the Florida storms last year...Nothing is going to happen quick...It happens in delebrate steps...

[Air Force Met]

Yes, people are dying sitting on overpasses waiting for help but here's the facts folks. Millions of tons of material are prepared to go but... first you have to transport it. That means staging areas have to be set up to receive it and distribute it. Then fuel is critical, trucks, helicopters, generators all run on fuel you have to get that there too. Where do you stockpile fuel? You need tanks to hold it in. You need pumps to pump it.

We've said for years in emergency managment prepare yourself to survive on your own for up to a week without help. You've heard it said here year after year. You just can drop 10,000 troops into New Orleans unless you can support them too. They need water, food, fuel, medical supplies to sustain their mission.

This is NOT a political problem it is simply a logistical problem complicated by the flooding. Evacuate the superdome? Absolutely! Now some of the hotheads in here tell me how you move 35 or 40,000 people quickly when you can't even get to them? At the moment you can't truck them you can't fly them and you sure can't march them out. If you have a solution I'm sure the State of Lousiana would love to hear it right now.

From someone who works with FEMA...and does this for a living...all I can say is: "Well said."

People who think all this can be solved by doing x...y...z have no CLUE what it takes logistically....and if they ever did do this for a living...well...never mind...they'll enver get it.

[beachbum_al]

I agree 100%. People are doing all they can right now. I also think people are starting to go through the grieving process. Being angry is part of it. You try to find answers why things are happening and sometimes the anger is directed at people who don't have control over mother nature.

[chris_fit]

Yes, people are dying sitting on overpasses waiting for help but here's the facts folks. Millions of tons of material are prepared to go but... first you have to transport it. That means staging areas have to be set up to receive it and distribute it. Then fuel is critical, trucks, helicopters, generators all run on fuel you have to get that there too. Where do you stockpile fuel? You need tanks to hold it in. You need pumps to pump it.

We've said for years in emergency managment prepare yourself to survive on your own for up to a week without help. You've heard it said here year after year. You just can drop 10,000 troops into New Orleans unless you can support them too. They need water, food, fuel, medical supplies to sustain their mission.

This is NOT a political problem it is simply a logistical problem complicated by the flooding. Evacuate the superdome? Absolutely! Now some of the hotheads in here tell me how you move 35 or 40,000 people quickly when you can't even get to them? At the moment you can't truck them you can't fly them and you sure can't march them out. If you have a solution I'm sure the State of Lousiana would love to hear it right now.

Very well said.

[oneness]

Just heard on WWL that one on the airports in NO is soon to be re-opened, and that they have air traffic control back up. It's no longer submerged as the water has receded after the storm from that runway and taxi ways.

[Air Force Met]

You know...how about we put blame where blame is due?

Do you really think we would be trying to figure out how to parachute troops in if all those ABLE-BODIED" people in SELA and MS would have heeded the request by officials to evacuate? I mean seriously...if you are stuck on an overpass in NOLA right now...and you obviously could get out because you walked to that overpass...whose fault is it you are there? The military's because they haven't gotten to you yet because they are too busy cutting people out of their attics (who also should have left)?Yes...I understand some people couldn't evacuate for some reason or another...but if all of those who COULD HAVE evacuated...did...do you really think we would be having this conversation?

So...whose fault is it really? It's not the governments fault you put yourself into harms way...and people have to live (or die) with the choices they have made. People like superfly (who I hope is OK)..who sat here and said it's over-hyped...I ain't leaving...now it's the government's fault he (or those like him) are suffering?

Please. If you stayed behind by choice and ignored all the pleading for you to leave...just be grateful when someone finally shows up. We are asking young men and women to risk their lives to save those who put their own lives in jeapordy in the first palce. The only blame the government has is the city government who was telling people no need to evacuate on Friday. they should be fired and put in jail. People ahd plenty of chances on Saturday. If you didn't have a car...I'm sure you could have found a ride. If not...then I am real disappointed in the people of NOLA that would not help their fellow citizens get out of the way of this storm. I suspect, however, that is a very rare case and not the rule.

[inotherwords]

Yes, people are dying sitting on overpasses waiting for help but here's the facts folks. Millions of tons of material are prepared to go but... first you have to transport it. That means staging areas have to be set up to receive it and distribute it. Then fuel is critical, trucks, helicopters, generators all run on fuel you have to get that there too. Where do you stockpile fuel? You need tanks to hold it in. You need pumps to pump it.

We've said for years in emergency managment prepare yourself to survive on your own for up to a week without help. You've heard it said here year after year. You just can drop 10,000 troops into New Orleans unless you can support them too. They need water, food, fuel, medical supplies to sustain their mission.

This is NOT a political problem it is simply a logistical problem complicated by the flooding. Evacuate the superdome? Absolutely! Now some of the hotheads in here tell me how you move 35 or 40,000 people quickly when you can't even get to them? At the moment you can't truck them you can't fly them and you sure can't march them out. If you have a solution I'm sure the State of Lousiana would love to hear it right now.

From someone who works with FEMA...and does this for a living...all I can say is: "Well said."

People who think all this can be solved by doing x...y...z have no CLUE what it takes logistically....and if they ever did do this for a living...well...never mind...they'll enver get it.

I agree, there's way too many uninformed opinions and simplistic solutions being tossed around about this whole situation.

[bvigal]

I agree 100%. People are doing all they can right now. I also think people are starting to go through the grieving process. Being angry is part of it. You try to find answers why things are happening and sometimes the anger is directed at people who don't have control over mother nature.

Bingo!!