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mf_dolphin
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#21 Postby mf_dolphin » Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:49 am

brettjrob wrote:Again, I find the moderators' excuses for this selective deletion to be terrible. Stephanie specifically said this was the reason for deleting Widre's post: Just more of an escalation of what we were seeing during the day yesterday. If this was the reason, the entire thread would have been deleted because Coppertop's tongue-in-cheek attack on liberalism was every bit as inflammatory as Widre's response! The only difference is that it was in line with the majority's opinion here.


The posts in fact were deleted by me. If we deleted posts we didn't agree to based on personal opinion then Paolo for one would never post lol Again and for the last time. You can disagree with the subject of a post all you want but you will do it in a civil manner. Accept it or I'll be happy to show you the door :-)
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#22 Postby Stephanie » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:13 pm

brettjrob wrote:Again, I find the moderators' excuses for this selective deletion to be terrible. Stephanie specifically said this was the reason for deleting Widre's post: Just more of an escalation of what we were seeing during the day yesterday. If this was the reason, the entire thread would have been deleted because Coppertop's tongue-in-cheek attack on liberalism was every bit as inflammatory as Widre's response! The only difference is that it was in line with the majority's opinion here.


Coppertop can comment however he wants about liberalism or conservatism. Did you actually READ what Coppertop's post was all about? I hate to tell you this, even though I'm more liberal than the majority of of the people here, I did not take offense to what he posted because IT MAKES SENSE at least to me. If you don't agree with it then say so and then move on.

You guys just are not getting it. It's called respect. Debate, disagree, comment all you like WITHOUT FLAMING OR BASHING each other. If you have a problem with a member or even with the staff, pm them or pm one of the Admins to voice your concerns. To tell you the truth, the way some of you are acting, you're just strenghtening the stereotype of a liberal. Have you ever heard of taking the high road?
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#23 Postby Anonymous » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:47 pm

Stephanie wrote:Coppertop can comment however he wants about liberalism or conservatism. Did you actually READ what Coppertop's post was all about? I hate to tell you this, even though I'm more liberal than the majority of of the people here, I did not take offense to what he posted because IT MAKES SENSE at least to me.

A select few lines of his post made sense (i.e., the woman suing McDonald's), but most of it was mindless conservative drivel and bemoaning the fact that civilization is progressing and advancing. Criminals treated better than victims... wow, what is this country coming to respecting human rights and not dipping to the level of the perpetrator? Give me a break. :roll:

If you don't agree with it then say so and then move on.

I think that's what WidreMann was trying to do, but someone felt the need to remove it.

You guys just are not getting it. It's called respect. Debate, disagree, comment all you like WITHOUT FLAMING OR BASHING each other.

There was no flaming or bashing until the almighty Troll Patrol starting making the rounds. I love how people are accused of instigating flame wars here when the thread had been completely peaceful until the deleting and editing started up (case in point, the DT-Erica thread, but that has already been beaten to death).

To tell you the truth, the way some of you are acting, you're just strenghtening the stereotype of a liberal. Have you ever heard of taking the high road?

If calmly and logically responding to biased moderation -- without any personal attacking or flaming -- is stereotypical liberalism, I'll be glad to enhance the image.
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#24 Postby mf_dolphin » Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:55 pm

Widremann was quite clear in his post. I deleted the post because it was clearly an attack directed against Coppertop. Since it was the sencond post in the thread you are mistaken about what instigated the situation. If that was not his intent then he's welcome to post his views on the subject matter in a civil nmanner. If you have a problem with my decision then so be it.
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#25 Postby Anonymous » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:02 pm

WidreMann's response (and yes, I am fully aware it was the second post in the thread) was not a personal attack and IMO not deserving of deletion. A personal attack, to me, is "you fooking right wing kook" or "conservative moron." Widre's post was simply condemning the actions/thoughts of a group of people that included coppertop, which is not really a personal attack. It was also an accusation backed with logic as opposed to reckless name-calling. Not the most civil post ever, but certainly no worse than many others here that are left untouched.
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#26 Postby timNms » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:04 pm

brett,
I saw the post that you are questioning and IMO, Widre's post WAS a personal attack. Perhaps he didn't mean for it to come across that way. But by the way he worded it, it came across as an attack.

MF has already told you why it was deleted. Drop it and move on.
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#27 Postby Stephanie » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:36 pm

brettjrob wrote:
Stephanie wrote:Coppertop can comment however he wants about liberalism or conservatism. Did you actually READ what Coppertop's post was all about? I hate to tell you this, even though I'm more liberal than the majority of of the people here, I did not take offense to what he posted because IT MAKES SENSE at least to me.

A select few lines of his post made sense (i.e., the woman suing McDonald's), but most of it was mindless conservative drivel and bemoaning the fact that civilization is progressing and advancing. Criminals treated better than victims... wow, what is this country coming to respecting human rights and not dipping to the level of the perpetrator? Give me a break. :roll:

If you don't agree with it then say so and then move on.

I think that's what WidreMann was trying to do, but someone felt the need to remove it.

You guys just are not getting it. It's called respect. Debate, disagree, comment all you like WITHOUT FLAMING OR BASHING each other.

There was no flaming or bashing until the almighty Troll Patrol starting making the rounds. I love how people are accused of instigating flame wars here when the thread had been completely peaceful until the deleting and editing started up (case in point, the DT-Erica thread, but that has already been beaten to death).

To tell you the truth, the way some of you are acting, you're just strenghtening the stereotype of a liberal. Have you ever heard of taking the high road?

If calmly and logically responding to biased moderation -- without any personal attacking or flaming -- is stereotypical liberalism, I'll be glad to enhance the image.


brett - that is all your opinion which I disagree with which I have the right to do and everyone else does as well.

May I add, your responses are not and have not been calm and that IS the stereotype.

The deleting of the threads are to stop and/or prevent discussions from becoming more inflamed. Within the past 2 days we've seen and heard enough to decide when to put an end to it and surprise, surprise, it's usually due to the same people that have already had a LONG history of flaming and bashing. You get alittle tired of babysitting.
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#28 Postby Anonymous » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:58 pm

Stephanie wrote:May I add, your responses are not and have not been calm and that IS the stereotype.

I strongly disagree; there has been no name-calling or attacking in any of my recent posts. Please present evidence if you wish to imply otherwise.

Since I came on yesterday I have tried as hard as I can to look at each thread and each situation as objectively as possible, and no matter how much I do so, I still come to the same conclusion: the moderation here is sometimes biased, and the worst part is that when someone points this out (particularly a WWBB regular) they are torn to pieces and told they have started a flame war, when in fact it is largely the delete-happy moderators who start pointless skirmishes such as the one we're in right now.

Don't even try to tell me that you'd be perfectly happy if you showed up at a forum where 95% of the regulars held opposing political views and from the get-go your posts were constantly deleted and in some cases even selectively edited without your being informed -- and all this while those holding the majority view frequently posted things just as inflammatory or even moreso without being touched. It's just not how you do things if you want to be a fair and open message board, and as such I can only assume that the higher-ups over here are not all that concerned with that (as demonstrated by Marshall's response of "this is not a democracy" instead of logically explaining his decision).
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#29 Postby Lindaloo » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:07 pm

brett, you need to respect authority here at S2K. If you have a problem then you need to contact an Admin.
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#30 Postby mf_dolphin » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:19 pm

Well Brett I explained all I feel I need to. Chad and I have spent 100's of hours putting this board together and frankly I don't feel we have to answer to you for our actions. I posted that I deleted the Widremann post because I thought it was a direct personal attack against Coppertop. You don't have to like it or agree but in this case my opinion as to the nature on the post is all that matters in the final count. As to our moderation, look up PaoloinRome posts. He's a prime example of someone who disagrees with the majority of this board and yet his posts remain untouched. Why? Because he presents his arguements in a largely civil manner. I disagree with him on almost everything but I respect his right to his opinion. In fact I rather enjoy debating him. What some people won't get through their thick skulls is that they will never win an arguement here when they chose to directly confront a Mod or an Admin on a Moderation issue. If you feel there's an issue then the right way is to contact Chad or myself and make your point in a civil manner.
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#31 Postby Guest » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:47 pm

Marshall, you know my policy. I don't care what my detractors do or say, in fact I'd rather enjoy hearing them bash me. I like hearing what goes on in the minds of humans. Thus, if they feel anger toward me, and they want to call me stupid, I say let them. But I know your policy on this subject, so from now on, if you want to bash me, PM or email me and let's take it off board.

Nemo me impune lacessit...bring it on... :beam:
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#32 Postby Rainband » Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:55 pm

Excellent Post coppertop :)
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#33 Postby mf_dolphin » Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:19 pm

Coppertop wrote:Marshall, you know my policy. I don't care what my detractors do or say, in fact I'd rather enjoy hearing them bash me. I like hearing what goes on in the minds of humans. Thus, if they feel anger toward me, and they want to call me stupid, I say let them. But I know your policy on this subject, so from now on, if you want to bash me, PM or email me and let's take it off board.

Nemo me impune lacessit...bring it on... :beam:


I have no doubt you can hold your own in a debate Kevin. I have the utmost confidence in you. :-) However the rules are enforced for the good of the board in general. If you ever want to open an AIM chatroom for a no holes barred debate I just want an invite ;-)
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#34 Postby WEATHER53 » Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:35 pm

What did he say. To my memory it was quite short and not horrid. Even though to my hazy recollection is was a personal attack to make post after post about "we will not repost it" I think is more detractive than attractive. I support the general code of conduct of this board, which is stricter than WWBB ,and I have always said such; but in this case it seems to be doing more harm than good to not put the cards (back) on the table.
Last edited by WEATHER53 on Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#35 Postby Stephanie » Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:38 pm

brettjrob wrote:
Stephanie wrote:May I add, your responses are not and have not been calm and that IS the stereotype.

I strongly disagree; there has been no name-calling or attacking in any of my recent posts. Please present evidence if you wish to imply otherwise.

Since I came on yesterday I have tried as hard as I can to look at each thread and each situation as objectively as possible, and no matter how much I do so, I still come to the same conclusion: the moderation here is sometimes biased, and the worst part is that when someone points this out (particularly a WWBB regular) they are torn to pieces and told they have started a flame war, when in fact it is largely the delete-happy moderators who start pointless skirmishes such as the one we're in right now.

Don't even try to tell me that you'd be perfectly happy if you showed up at a forum where 95% of the regulars held opposing political views and from the get-go your posts were constantly deleted and in some cases even selectively edited without your being informed -- and all this while those holding the majority view frequently posted things just as inflammatory or even moreso without being touched. It's just not how you do things if you want to be a fair and open message board, and as such I can only assume that the higher-ups over here are not all that concerned with that (as demonstrated by Marshall's response of "this is not a democracy" instead of logically explaining his decision).


What posts were instantly deleted?

I AM the minority in my point of view brett and I'm dealing with it, how's about you? My posts before I was a mod were never deleted. There were several times I asked myself "why do I bother?". My answer was because I do have alot of friends on this board that I met over at TWC and here. I've always been one to try and see both sides of the issue. I don't think that you're even making the attempt. At any rate, if it is so bad here, then why DO YOU BOTHER?
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#36 Postby chadtm80 » Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:44 pm

What did he say. To my memory it was quite short and not horrid. Even though to my hazy recollection is was a personal attack to make post after post about "we will not repost it" I think is more detractive than attractive. I support the general code of conduct of this board, which is stricter than WWBB ,and I have always said such; but in this case it seems to be doing more harm than good to not put the cards (back) on the table.


Posts are taken down becuase they are offensive and/or dont belong on the board. Were obviously not going to put them back to get a full board concensus on it. EVERY member is open to contact us privately about any post we delete (in fact we PM members when we delete posts) and question us. But we will not debate it on the forum. That would just defeat the whole purpose of us deleting it and thats to keep the garbage off the board.
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#37 Postby Anonymous » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:07 pm

Stephanie wrote:What posts were instantly deleted?

I AM the minority in my point of view brett and I'm dealing with it, how's about you? My posts before I was a mod were never deleted. There were several times I asked myself "why do I bother?". My answer was because I do have alot of friends on this board that I met over at TWC and here. I've always been one to try and see both sides of the issue. I don't think that you're even making the attempt. At any rate, if it is so bad here, then why DO YOU BOTHER?

I am not sure what has brought on your sudden hostility; my posts over the past day have been, at least in my opinion, quite civil and non-confrontational. I am simply stating my thoughts on the events unfolding on the OT forum here, and yes, sometimes they are in conflict with the thoughts of the moderators. As Marshall mentioned, my complaints are not going to change the way Storm2k operates, and I understand this but have and will continue to post my views regardless. When I say that I see biased moderation I do not expect it to instantly alter the way things are run here; rather, it is just a contribution to the discussion, even if contradictory to the "official" view. To a large extent I can accept the fact that when the moderators and administrators see something differently than I do the resulting action will probably not be what I would've done, but when Lindaloo goes on a power trip telling essentially obedient members that they "cannot question the rules" and that she will "show them the door" when disagreement is voiced, that's harder to swallow.

Why do I bother? At this point in time mainly because WWBB is down, but I do usually drop by here once every day or two because there are some good threads scattered throughout the Off-Topic forum, and of course the weather-related threads here are just as good as at any other board.

As for attempting to see both sides of the issue, I may not always do a great job in that area, but I do frequently try to, and there are certainly many on the other side of the aisle here with the same fault. I understand that the conservative views on issues usually have some validity and logical backing, but it becomes harder and harder to see as certain posters taint the threads with thoughtless and predictable posts. I do, however, take what you said to heart and will try to improve; I've done my share of anti-conservative rants and attacks without enough thought and sometimes should not be so quick to dismiss.
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#38 Postby chadtm80 » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:15 pm

As for attempting to see both sides of the issue, I may not always do a great job in that area, but I do frequently try to, and there are certainly many on the other side of the aisle here with the same fault. I understand that the conservative views on issues usually have some validity and logical backing, but it becomes harder and harder to see as certain posters taint the threads with thoughtless and predictable posts. I do, however, take what you said to heart and will try to improve; I've done my share of anti-conservative rants and attacks without enough thought and sometimes should not be so quick to dismiss.

Its hard to do sometimes.. We ALL strugle with that.. Its human nature. I have no problem admitting I dont always give both sides of the issue a full look through. some are set in there beliefs and stick that way. I will also try harder to do so as well.. Thanks steph.

As far as the other part of your post with Lindaloo.. She isnt upset with opposing views.. She is upset with the way "SOME" opposing views are rudly put out there.. And as far as saying she will show someone the door if they dont like the way things run here.. Well its nothing that is out of line. My mom use to tell me all the time.. Dont like the rules, there is the door.. lol None of the mods have the physical power to ban a member, if a member gets banned it was physicaly done by marshall or myslef, so any of those matters should just come directly to us. We LOVE our staff and chose them very carfully and am very happy with the team we have :-)
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#39 Postby Stephanie » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:18 pm

"My hostility" has to do with with I consider uncivil posts by you to the mods and others that post their opinions to the contrary. It seems to me and others that you have a problem with authority - yes, it is not a "democracy" when it comes to having a choice to following the rules or not. As many have stated, mods and members, this is a private board where you need to register as a member. It is not an entitlement and you must agree to abide by the rules.

If you have a problem with a Mod or Admin, it has been mentioned MANY TIMES that you can pm that person or an Admin to discuss your concerns. We are never saying you can't disagree, but we don't want the board to become a boxing ring.

With that said, thank you for your last post - it was a good one.
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