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SouthernWx

#61 Postby SouthernWx » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:00 pm

gtalum wrote:I never understood why people get so upset over a piece of cloth anyway.


Well friend, I can tell you. It's because many patriotic Americans (myself included) consider Old Glory far more than a piece of cloth. It's sacred to me...a symbol of freedom I hold dear to my heart; Old Glory is also extremely sacred to me because of all the young American heroes who've lost their lives and been maimed fighting under her.

There are few things that so anger me as to see the American flag mocked or mutilated. I rank witnessing the U.S. flag burned right up there with seeing a man slap a woman when it comes to making me go ballistic.

Charley Daniels was right....the flag "ain't a rag", and seeing it mistreated like a discarded rag or piece of garbage makes me so angry it's beyond description....and I'm normally as laid back and non-aggressive as a southern boy ever gets.

PW
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#62 Postby drudd1 » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:19 pm

Condensed from a speech by Leo K. Thorness,


(Recipient of The Congressional Medal of Honor. )

Mike's Flag

"You've probably seen the bumper sticker somewhere along the road. It depicts an American Flag, accompanied by the words "These colors don't run." I'm always glad to see this, because it reminds me of an incident from my confinement in North Vietnam at the Hao Lo POW Camp, or the "Hanoi Hilton," as it became known. Then a Major in the U.S. Air Force, I had been captured and imprisoned from 1967-1973. Our treatment had been frequently brutal.

After three years, however, the beatings and torture became less frequent. During the last year, we were allowed outside most days for a couple of minutes to bathe. We showered by drawing water from a concrete tank with a homemade bucket.

One day as we all stood by the tank, stripped of our clothes, a young Naval pilot named Mike Christian found the remnants of a handkerchief in a gutter that ran under the prison wall. Mike managed to sneak the grimy rag into our cell and began fashioning it into a flag.

Over time we all loaned him a little soap, and he spent days cleaning the material. We helped by scrounging and stealing bits and pieces of anything he could use. At night, under his mosquito net, Mike worked on the flag. He made red and blue from ground-up roof tiles and tiny amounts of ink and painted the colors onto the cloth with watery rice glue. Using thread from his own blanket and a homemade bamboo needle, he sewed on stars.

Early in the morning a few days later, when the guards were not alert, he whispered loudly from the back of our cell, "Hey gang, look here." He proudly held up this tattered piece of cloth, waving it as if in a breeze. If you used your imagination, you could tell it was supposed to be an American flag.

When he raised that smudgy fabric, we automatically stood straight and saluted, our chests puffing out, and more than a few eyes had tears. About once a week the guards would strip us, run us outside and go through our clothing. During one of those shakedowns, they found Mike's flag. We all knew what would happen.

That night they came for him. Night interrogations were always the worst. They opened the cell door and pulled Mike out. We could hear the beginning of the torture before they even had him in the torture cell. They beat him most of the night. About daylight they pushed what was left of him back through the cell door. He was badly broken; even his voice was gone.

Within two weeks, despite the danger, Mike scrounged another piece of cloth and began another flag. The Stars and Stripes, our national symbol, was worth the sacrifice to him. Now, whenever I see the flag, I think of Mike and the morning he first waved that tattered emblem of a nation. It was then, thousands of miles from home in a lonely prison cell, that he showed us what it is to be truly free."
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#63 Postby george_r_1961 » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:06 am

Gtalum my late father spent 20 years in the military doing everything from getting shot at (in Vietnam) to assisting citizens in the aftermath of a hurricane ( I believe it was Audrey). If he could see your post no doubt u would get flamed like u never got flamed before. Too bad he cannot talk to you as you obviously need to be educated. That "piece of cloth" as you put it represents every man, woman, and child in this country. It represents freedom and those who died defending that freedom. You just insulted me and every citizen of this great country, civilian and military alike. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself. Go ahead and now tell me the flag that adorned my dads casket is "just a piece if cloth". :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x
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#64 Postby USCG_Hurricane_Watcher » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:22 am

gtalum wrote:I never understood why people get so upset over a piece of cloth anyway.


Holy freakin' ####!!!....Talk about getting spun up first thing in the morning...

Tell you what - Tell Rebecca Eggers that the flag draping Dan's casket is just a "piece of cloth."

Image
Members of the U.S. Army 3rd Infantry carry the casket of Captain Daniel W. Eggers during funeral services at Arlington National Cemetery, Tuesday, June 22, 2004.

Image
Army Brigadier General Gary Jones presents a medal to Margaret
Eggers, mother of Captain Daniel W. Eggers, during his funeral services
at Arlington National Cemetery, Tuesday June 22, 2004.
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#65 Postby sunny » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:27 am

If that doesn't put things in perspective, Joshua, nothing will. I'd like to see someone argue with THIS.
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#66 Postby azskyman » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:33 am

I actually did this once...but never had a reply.

I saw a similar situation where a flag was flying that was very tattered and torn. I dropped a note off at the house thanking him for flying the flag and asking that he please replace it...and if he wished, I would pick one up for him.

Within a few days a new flag was flying. Had I noticed the old one in the trash, I would have simply asked if I could have it.

In my birthday card from my now-90-year-old dad last year was a photo of the flag he flew daily at our home while I served time in Vietnam. He still has that flag and flew it at his new home, took a photo of it, and included it in my card.

I still have the flag presented to me while I was in Vietnam by former Congressman John B. Anderson. I also have the one that flew over the Capitol on my request in honor of National Weather Observers Day.

Think twice about calling it a piece of cloth, please.
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JerryG

#67 Postby JerryG » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:55 am

drudd1 wrote:
JerryG wrote:Total overeaction IMO

Maybe the flag was worn and he was putting up a new one.

If something is old, we throw it away.....big deal.


If you have children, I hope they don't take your philosophy to heart when you become a senior citizen :D


Typical response.....
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JerryG

#68 Postby JerryG » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:04 am

People are missing the point IMO

1) Unless there are specific laws on the books, someone can discard a flag any way they please and it is nobody's business to tell them otherwise

2) AFAIK, the suggestions to burn a flag or give it to VFW or some other org are merely precatory and not binding.

3) IMO, it is not terribly safe to burn a flag, and many flags are nylon and cant be burnt anyway

4) As this guy is apparently military, I think it is a BIG assumption that he was dsecrating the flag. He was probably flying the flag and going to put up a new one. For all we know, he had a personal, private ceremony to honor the flag before he disposed of it....or maybe his kid put it in the trash not knowing any better. I find the judgment and castigation of this man to be ridiculous and misdirected as he is probably a patriot.


At the MOST, someone could advise him in a NICE manner that VFW's, etc will take old flags.

If someone came onto my property to yell at me about something in my yard, I would ask them to leave nicely ONCE. Then I would get physical.
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#69 Postby Pebbles » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:49 am

1) Unless there are specific laws on the books, someone can discard a flag any way they please and it is nobody's business to tell them otherwise


Paste from http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/flagcode.html
The Federal Flag Code prescribes the proper display of and respect for the United States Flag. Each state has its own flag law. Here is the code in its entirety (PUBLIC LAW 94 - 344):

(k) The Flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

4) As this guy is apparently military, I think it is a BIG assumption that he was dsecrating the flag. He was probably flying the flag and going to put up a new one. For all we know, he had a personal, private ceremony to honor the flag before he disposed of it....or maybe his kid put it in the trash not knowing any better. I find the judgment and castigation of this man to be ridiculous and misdirected as he is probably a patriot.


First, no one, that I know of, said they were going over to yell at the original gentleman in this thread. But as MILITARY he is taught the flag law... guarentee it.

People are angry and yelling at the "flag is just a piece of cloth" statement. If you look at what I posted above, I don't think the government would make laws over how to treat "a piece of cloth" either.

Christine
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JerryG

#70 Postby JerryG » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:56 am

Pebbles wrote:


(k) The Flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.



like I said above

a non-binding suggestion
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#71 Postby Pebbles » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:28 pm

I will concede it is non-binding (meaning there is no penalty if you don't follow it). But it is a specific law on the books...

I have no idea what Air Force Regulation is concerning flag care.. anyone else?

I already said what I would do... and my husband has done in a similar situation (just get the flag and take care of the matters ourselves). And that was with a non-military person. I do hold military somewhat more accountable though. I can't help but keep thinking he is suppose to be an example as an officer. The flag being even more sacred to military... it's really disappointing to hear a military officer would do this.

P.S. What do you think his commanding officer would say if he drove by and saw the flag? It must be right out in the open....

Christine
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#72 Postby GalvestonDuck » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:43 pm

First Vice-Commander: "Comrade Commander, since these Flags have become faded and worn in a tribute of service and love, I also recommend that they be fittingly destroyed."

Commander: "Comrades, we have presented here these Flags of our Country which have been inspected and condemned as unserviceable. They have reached their present state in a proper service of tribute, memory and love.

"A Flag may be a flimsy bit of printed gauze, or a beautiful banner of finest silk. Its intrinsic value may be trifling or great; but its real value is beyond price, for it is a precious symbol of all that we and our comrades have worked for and lived for, and died for-a free Nation of free men, true to the faith of the past, devoted to the ideals and practice of Justice, Freedom and Democracy.

"Let these faded Flags of our Country be retired and destroyed with respectful and honorable rites and their places be taken by bright new Flags of the same size and kind, and let no grave of our soldier or sailor dead be unhonored and unmarked.
Sergeant-at-Arms, assemble the Color Guard, escort the detail bearing the Flags and destroy these Flags by burning. The members shall stand at attention."

(Color Guard forms. The detail about faces. Preceded by the Color Guard the detail marches down center to the fire. National Colors cross over and take position on the right of the fire, facing the Commander. Post Standard takes position on left of fire. The detail lines up behind the fire, which is burning low.)

Commander: "The Chaplain will offer prayer."

Chaplain: "Almighty God, Captain of all hosts and Commander over all, bless and consecrate this present hour.

"We thank Thee for our Country and its Flag, and for the liberty for which it stands. "To clean and purging flame we commit these Flags, worn-out in worthy service. As they yield their substance to the fire, may Thy Holy Light spread over us and bring to our hearts renewed devotion to God and Country. Amen."


Commander: "Hand salute."

(Color Guards present arms. Post Standard is dipped. All officers and members except those on the Flag detail salute. Members of the Flag detail dip the condemned Flags in kerosene and place them on a rack over the fire).


http://www.legion.org/?section=our_flag ... g_ceremony
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#73 Postby GalvestonDuck » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:45 pm

This slid by the news or I missed it.

http://www.cfa-inc.org/

Flag Amendment clears House Judiciary;
Cosponsor drive continues
On Wednesday, May 25, 2005, the full Judiciary Committee of the United States House of Representatives approved House Joint Resolution 10, proposing a constitutional amendment to ban the desecration of the flag of the United States.

This action sets the stage for a House floor vote, where five previous times the measure passed overwhelmingly, going beyond the 290 supermajority votes required for a constitutional amendment.

The Committee rejected attempts to change the language of the resolution and defeated an effort to add a rider to the measure. Other attempts to delay Judiciary action until later in the month were also defeated.

The proposed amendment was approved by a vote of 17-9, which over rode opponents' call for formal hearings. Judiciary Chairman Jim Sensenbrenner [R-WI] offered that the arguments for and against the amendment have not changed since it was debated and voted on favorably in the 105th Congress. Rep. Steve Chabot [R-OH] bolstered the Chairman's remarks in noting that the American people overwhelmingly support a flag amendment.
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#74 Postby alicia-w » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:50 pm

As this guy is apparently military, I think it is a BIG assumption that he was dsecrating the flag. He was probably flying the flag and going to put up a new one. For all we know, he had a personal, private ceremony to honor the flag before he disposed of it....or maybe his kid put it in the trash not knowing any better. I find the judgment and castigation of this man to be ridiculous and misdirected as he is probably a patriot.


At the MOST, someone could advise him in a NICE manner that VFW's, etc will take old flags.

If someone came onto my property to yell at me about something in my yard, I would ask them to leave nicely ONCE. Then I would get physical.


First of all, I know this guy, you dont. His generally shabby property in a neighborhood of half million dollar and higher homes is entirely indicative of his general attitude. He's NOT a patriot. He's a lazy and disrespectful boob. All the years we've lived there, I've never seen the flag fly at his house. Cant imagine how he wore it out enough to throw it away. There are those of us who have served this country to defend your right to your opinion, no matter how much it inflames us.

and nobody said ANYTHING about going over there and yelling at the guy. Nobody. i did go and remove the flag from the trash and our honor guard is going to dispose of it properly.
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#75 Postby alicia-w » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:55 pm

OMG :lol: :lol:

someone just sent me a Maxine cartoon that says:

If you must burn our flag, please wrap yourself in it first.
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#76 Postby sunny » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:57 pm

alicia-w wrote:OMG :lol: :lol:

someone just sent me a Maxine cartoon that says:

If you must burn our flag, please wrap yourself in it first.


I do love Maxine :D She gives it to you straight!!
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#77 Postby streetsoldier » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:58 pm

Just to illustrate how I feel about this...

When my stepmother passed away, I went to Dad's old house for one last time; found my stepbrother with my Dad's burial flag in hand, who told me he was going to burn it (nothing wrong with the flag, BTW); at which time I TOOK it away from him by a slight amount of force, and sent it to my sister in NJ, the oldest and closest living female relative to care for it.

That's all from this ex-USAF 0-2. :grrr:
Last edited by streetsoldier on Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JerryG

#78 Postby JerryG » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:05 pm

alicia-w wrote:
As this guy is apparently military, I think it is a BIG assumption that he was dsecrating the flag. He was probably flying the flag and going to put up a new one. For all we know, he had a personal, private ceremony to honor the flag before he disposed of it....or maybe his kid put it in the trash not knowing any better. I find the judgment and castigation of this man to be ridiculous and misdirected as he is probably a patriot.


At the MOST, someone could advise him in a NICE manner that VFW's, etc will take old flags.

If someone came onto my property to yell at me about something in my yard, I would ask them to leave nicely ONCE. Then I would get physical.


First of all, I know this guy, you dont. His generally shabby property in a neighborhood of half million dollar and higher homes is entirely indicative of his general attitude. He's NOT a patriot. He's a lazy and disrespectful boob. All the years we've lived there, I've never seen the flag fly at his house. Cant imagine how he wore it out enough to throw it away. There are those of us who have served this country to defend your right to your opinion, no matter how much it inflames us.

and nobody said ANYTHING about going over there and yelling at the guy. Nobody. i did go and remove the flag from the trash and our honor guard is going to dispose of it properly.


Well I certainly accept your version of the facts as you are privy to info that I am not. But nevertheless, I am not enraged by his behavior as I might be by a flag burner, etc.

IMO, I think people put too much stock in symbols. Personally, I dont need other people to live their lives like mine in order to validate it.

There are also people who have served to defend people's rights to opinions that they share with YOU even though it may inflame them.
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alicia-w
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#79 Postby alicia-w » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:14 pm

Personally, I dont need other people to live their lives like mine in order to validate it.

good for you, but i dont know what this has to do with the subject being discussed.
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#80 Postby Windswept » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:32 pm

I understand what Jerry ment.
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