RIP Terri Schiavo

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GalvestonDuck
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#21 Postby GalvestonDuck » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:04 pm

blizzard wrote:I have a difficult time with this also, but for other reasons. 1). Ask yourself this...would you want to live in such a state as Terri is in? 2). If its God's will for her to live, she will live after the tube is removed.


I completely understand your points, Bliz. That's how I was able to make some of the opposing points that I made above. On an intellectual level, it can make sense. As a health care worker, it makes sense. But on an emotional level, it's hard to comprehend. And when it's a parent or a child, it must feel like one of the most difficult decisions a person has to make. A lot of people struggle with the same decision when it's a pet, but somehow it's a bit easier to accept socially. It's not considered murder.

God's will could very well be for her to live. However, without the nourishment provided by the feeding tube, she wouldn't live long. Basic survival knowledge tells us this. Unless someone else feeds her, she'll die of starvation. She can't feed herself and with only a brain stem, she probably can't even swallow if someone else did feed her.

Was gonna edit, but Stephanie beat me to it. :)
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#22 Postby Stephanie » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:17 pm

[quote="GalvestonDuck Was gonna edit, but Stephanie beat me to it. :)[/quote]

LOL! :wink:
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#23 Postby streetsoldier » Wed Oct 15, 2003 8:23 pm

I've already left very clear instructions as to "no heroic measures" and palliative care only if I'm incapacitated in such a manner.

I perceive NO sense in dragging my family through watching me degenerate before their very eyes.

Similarly, I have left instructions for no funeral or memorial services, immediate cremation, please, and what happens to the ashes is no concern of mine.

If anything, I wish to be remembered as I WAS, in life...not as some display piece for people to fawn over after I've passed on.
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#24 Postby blizzard » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:07 pm

My sentiments exactly Streetsoldier
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#25 Postby Toni - 574 » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:24 pm

I have a lot to say when it comes to Terri and this whole situation,but will try and limit my thoughts and emotions tonight. Ist of all let me start out by saying that my mother has personally cared for Terri not that long ago. Terri is in there no matter what some may say! She will follow you when you are in her room, she will respond to pain and she will smile when something funny is said. I believe what the media is having a very hard time telling the general public something that they themselves do not understand. OK, think about this for a minute you all, if Terri had some sort of a diease process going on, and the only thing keeping her alive was "life support" such as a ventilator meaning if it was turned off she would surely die, then that is one thing that should be seriously considered here. However this is not the case with Terri. The only life support that she needs is what we all have to have on a daily basics to survive,and that is FOOD... She requires no more than we do to live right now, but she is dependant on others for her care. All her husband wants is that insurance money. He already had his share of a settlement and the rest was to go too Terri for her care, now he wants to kill her just to get the rest of the darn money.... :cry: Just give her back to her parents and let her live!!!

I work as a nurse at an Exceptional Student Center, and it is very hard for me not to compare. If they are going to do this thing to Terri and starve her too death, then I can see the way being paved to take the majority of the students that I care for on a daily basics and turn off their feeding tubes also... The bottom line is this. Even though some people may not have the quality of life that we think they should have and we feel sorrow for them that they are like that, it does not give us the right to end someones life. Only God can do that when the time is right!!!
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#26 Postby Stephanie » Thu Oct 16, 2003 8:48 am

Why is it constantly stated in the media that she's "comatose" or am I missing something here???
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#27 Postby Amanzi » Thu Oct 16, 2003 9:00 am

She will follow you when you are in her room, she will respond to pain and she will smile when something funny is said.


I heard something similar on the radio that her sister said....

If that is the case then something needs to be done! If a human is responsive to pain and to emotion how can you just starve them to death?????

Toni how long ago did you care for her?
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#28 Postby stormchazer » Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:38 am

What is going on with Terri is state sponsered murder. I may have missed this, but does Jeb have any options or is he ignoring this?
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#29 Postby Toni - 574 » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:08 pm

Terri is not in a comatose state... unless this has happened within the last month, and I really don't think that is the case. My mother cared for her about a year ago, but I know someone who has cared for her within the past month. From a healthcare provider perspective her quality of life is very poor, I will admit, but where do you draw the line? How can we deny someone food because she is taking too long to die? I know that is a very bold statement but it's how I feel. This is a very sensitive subject yet I do respect the opinions of others. Just think of it as your child lying there and then you try to make a decision. I hope and pray to God that it is a decision that I will never have to make.

A living will is the right way to go, make sure your doctor has a copy as well as the hospital that you would most likely be taken too. If i am being kept alive by life support then let me go, but I don't want to die of starvation and in pain.... Jeb has appealed to a higher court to over rule the local judge, but I don't think it will work...
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#30 Postby mf_dolphin » Thu Oct 16, 2003 6:20 pm

Toni the reports I've read, including some of the court transcripts, say that several Doctors have testified that there is no higher order brain activity. If that is true, then the person known as Terri no longer exists. While this is a very difficult issue, I for one do not believe that life should be preserved at any cost. The capability of modern medicine to preserve the body has advanced to the point where the body can be preserved long after the point of reason in cases like this. While I understand the parents feelings, this case has gone to the rediculous IMO.
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#31 Postby Toni - 574 » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:33 pm

Hey Marshall, I think the key word here is higher order brain activity! Of course she has lost that, but she has not lost all brain activity. She is in there... she follows you around the room, she has pain and she smiles. If she did not do those things then I would agree that Terri is no longer with us and that she is brain dead. Which brings up another point here, if she was brain dead then she would be on a vent that would be keeping her alive. I think if that were the case even though it would still be a difficult decission to make it would make it easier to pull the plug and not as controversial. Please don't misunderstand what I am saying, I don't feel that life should be preserved at any cost, but in this particular case, other than her lack of higher brain functioning (which can mean alot of things,in fact I would like to hear the doctors break down of exactally what they mean by that) Terri is a healthy person. Food is not a medical treatment, there is no modern medicine at work here,just some good ole meat, potatoes and vegies that we all need to keep ourselves going. The only difference is that she gets her food thru a feeding tube, not a big deal, happens all the time!

This is really a very tuff call and I do respect your point of view Marshall, but I just would not want to be the one to have too disconnect her feeding tube. Hope you understand where I am coming from also!!
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#32 Postby Stephanie » Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:36 pm

Toni - if what you are saying is true, and I no doubt that it is, then I too believe that she shouldn't be disconnected.
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#33 Postby JetMaxx » Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:36 am

It sets a dangerous precedent IMO....when a court can order a feeding tube removed and allow a human being to starve to death that would otherwise live.

I already fear the day when courts decide who recieves medical treatment and who is deemed "too old" or "not worthy" of wasting time and medical resources on. I experienced a taste of this several years ago when my great aunt Ruby was dying of cirrosis liver. She never drank an alcoholic beverage in her life, but suffered from hepatitis which destroyed her liver....she suffered terribly the final five years of her life. :(

One thing that still makes me both very angry and sad was the hospital's increasing reluctance to give aunt Ruby blood transfusions the final 18 months of her life....they said the Red Cross "discouraged" using limited blood resources on terminal elderly patients with
no chance of recovery...the blood was needed for younger, healthier accident and surgery patients. Wait...this was MY aunt....a member of MY family who worked her #ss off at Arrow Shirts for 40 years. She wasn't an old piece of garbage....she was a human being who we loved and didn't deserve being treated second class just because she was unlucky enough to get cirrosis liver at age 74. Becky and I both offered to donate blood specifically for our aunt....but the hospital said it couldn't be saved for one person. Whether we donated blood or not didn't matter to them. :(

I foresee a day coming in America when a judge or medical board decides who gets medical attention/ treatment/ medication/ funding and lives--- and who doesn't and dies. Those patients who are too poor, unimportant, old, sick, or disabled will be deemed as "expendable" :(
This case in Florida only convinces me more that sad day is closer at hand than ever.
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#34 Postby GalvestonDuck » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:16 am

JetMaxx wrote:Becky and I both offered to donate blood specifically for our aunt....but the hospital said it couldn't be saved for one person.


Either they lied or the person who told you that didn't know the policy or the hospital stunk and didn't have a good policy in place. At UK, people could donate one of three ways -- as a volunteer donor to anyone in need, as a designated donor for a loved one, or as an autologous donor (for their own use to put towards a future planned surgery). For obvious reasons, a "designated" donor's blood did not always actually go to the loved one because not everyone has the same blood type or antibodies to give crossmatched blood to a loved one. But the patient would get "credits" towards a unit of blood for those that were donated in her designation. For cancer patients, some hospitals work it the same way for platelet usage. I had a co-worker here at UTMB who recently passed away from cancer. We donated blood designated for her and the cancer center gave her units of platelets for each unit we gave.
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#35 Postby JetMaxx » Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:44 am

Shawn, our local hospital has become a joke. They appointed an arrogant African-American woman from New York City as hospital adminstrator several years ago, and ever since it's went from a nice, friendly patient oriented facility to a nightmare.

I'm almost ashamed to tell people that I once was employed there as a security officer. They seem to do everything in their power to make patients and patients families feel inconvienced and unwelcome. It now has the feel of a big city hospital....where patients are looked upon as numbers, not humans....many doctors and staff seem not to care whether the patient lives or dies -- just as long as they are making $$$$ (the bottom line :(

I've had to BEG to get my great aunt a cot to sleep on when staying with her husband at night....was told there were no pillows available for his bed (and he was a PATIENT)...I went and purchased him one at Wal-Mart. They now lock the cafeteria between meals and patient family members cannot even get a cup of ice. There are very few places for visitors to sit down and rest (no waiting rooms on 2nd & 3rd floors anymore; not enough chairs in patient rooms; the front lobby which WAS a large waiting room is now the outpatient surgery/ radiology waiting room). The ICU waiting room is very difficult for patient families to find (I've worked there and have a difficult time telling others how to find it).

It seems anything they can do to hassle patients and their families they do....even give family members a hard time who are trying to find loved ones brought in by ambulance in dying condition.....I've seen distraught folks sitting in the ER waiting room, unable to be with their family member as they die -- blocked by electonic doors (I know reasonable security is needed in any ER setting...but any nurse/ staff member with common sense should be able to discern between troublemakers and those who are earnestly concerned about their loved one's welfare). What it boils down to is the hospital no longer CARES about family members, their comfort, or their feelings.

We are now reluctant to leave an elderly family member alone overnight -- because aunt Ruby once fell after her repeated calls to the nurses station requesting assistance to get to the toilet were ignored (and aunt Ruby tried to get there herself rather than mess in her bed).

Also, the food in the hospital cafeteria has to be the sorriest I've ever eaten (and used to be a great place to eat). They've cut corners to save money, and now the food is often served cold/ half cooked...I've gotten almost afraid to eat there (have gotten sick several times eating there in recent years). On my uncle's recent hospitalization, we mostly bought lunch/ dinner at nearby restaurants or ate meals here at home. What's really scary? The patients get the same slop as the visitors. Does anyone wonder why I had a difficult time getting aunt Ruby to eat while in the hospital...why I have a difficult time getting uncle Larry, aunt Millie, or my grandmother to eat and keep their strength up while in the hospital.

One factor in all I've described....Wellstar Douglas is hopelessly overcrowded. Since the only other hospital in Douglas County closed down in 2001, we now have one 90 bed facilty to serve 100,000 residents and thousands of travelers and visitors. I've seen my relatives stuck in the ER for 2 days or longer while waiting to be transferred to a room upstairs after being admitted. I've seen patients lying on gurneys in the ER hallways for hours without medical attention. I have no doubts that this has caused deaths...especially among elderly patients in the past couple years (especially in the wintertime when flu/ pneumonia outbreaks cause even worse burden on limited facilities/ staff).

BTW- I'm NOT a disgruntled former employee. I resigned from Douglas General hospital on very friendly terms to accept a better job in 1991....all this mess I've described didn't begin until 1996 -- when the new hospital adminstrator was appointed...and it's been all downhill ever since. :( :(
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#36 Postby mf_dolphin » Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:31 pm

"Higher order brain activity"is everything other than refex actions gonerned by the brain stem. The responce to light stimuli, pain, breathing, and heartbeat are governed by the madula oblongata (sp?)or brain stem. There has been no other brain activity noted for years according to the testimony of several different physicians including court appointed ones.
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#37 Postby JetMaxx » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:02 pm

I'll admit I'd never heard of this Florida case until a few days ago..

If what I've seen and been told is accurate, it would be far more humane to give this lady a shot and put her to sleep quickly and painlessly (i.e- lethal injection) that to remove her feeding tube and let nature take its course in a slow and horrifying starvation.

I know a couple older gentlemen in this area who were captured and imprisoned in the Philippines during WWII; they witnessed fellow soldiers starve to death in Japanese POW camps (and nearly died of starvation themselves)....from their firsthand accounts, I know it's a horrible way to die. :( :(
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#38 Postby Toni - 574 » Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:02 am

Have to say that I agree with you JettMaxx.

Marshall, I am impressed with your post ,but I would like to add a little more if I may...

The brain stem consists of the Midbrain, pons, and the medulla oblongata.

The midbrain coordinates motor function, visual reflexes and hearing. It also controls awareness,alertness through fibers that is scattered thru out the midbrain, pons and the medulla.

The pons relay messages from the medulla to the higher centers in the brain.

The medulla oblongata links higher brain centers to other parts of the body by way of the spinal cord. This controls respirations and to some extent controls the heartbeat thru the cardiac reflex center. Blood vessels will also constrict that will raise blood pressure.

The cerebrum (forbrain) also controls higher functions and activities, conscious, mental process, sensations, emotions and voluntary movements

The Cerebellum coordinates movement,balance and posture.

In our nervous system we have many nerve cells, and the main cell body has branches that are called axons and dendrites. The axions carries impluses away from the cells and the dentrites carries impluses to the cells. Nerve cells are classified according to their functions and where they transmit to the body. These nerve cells have to be able to cross a netural synapse in order for things to work.

Now in Terri's case she has a lot of problems here, but as you can see from what the midbrain does she still has some degree of higher functions. It is not a mere reflex to follow someone who enters her room or to smile when somone says something funny or to respond to pain the way she does. I suppose that we could go back and forth forever and in the end we will all be right or wrong for that matter. One thing though that I can clearly see is that we all want what we think is best for Terri. As JettMaxx said I just wish she could slowly slip away and not have to endure this. But when she is gone, I think we will discover that it was worse for her family and on lookers than it was for her. In situations like this, I strongly believe there is always a lesson for us to learn. It could be that we ourselves are being prepared for something we may have to face one day or just to make a better person out of us. Who knows what Gods plan is here. I know that Terri's situation sure has made me search my heart and soul, and has touched a lot of lives!! REST IN PEACE TERRI...
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#39 Postby Stephanie » Sat Oct 18, 2003 9:09 am

Nice post Toni!
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#40 Postby Amanzi » Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:24 am

Your words ring very true Toni... you wrote that in a wonderful and touching way! I too wish there was a more humane solution.

But when she is gone, I think we will discover that it was worse for her family and on lookers than it was for her. In situations like this, I strongly believe there is always a lesson for us to learn. It could be that we ourselves are being prepared for something we may have to face one day or just to make a better person out of us. Who knows what Gods plan is here. I know that Terri's situation sure has made me search my heart and soul, and has touched a lot of lives!! REST IN PEACE TERRI...
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