Religious question

[GalvestonDuck]

Tim, maybe some of this will help?

http://www.udayton.edu/mary/questions/faq/faq17.html

Why do Catholics pray to Mary?

For Catholics, there are different types of Marian prayer that reflect different intentions. Reciting the "Magnificat," for example, is a way to praise God as Mary did. By reciting the "Angelus," you commemorate an event in salvation history, one in which Mary had a major role. Such commemorations are also made by the entire Church in the liturgical cycle. At Christmas, for example, the faithful recall Mary's role in the birth of Christ.

Prayers invoking Mary's intercession for your own personal intentions are in a separate class, arousing controversy since the time of the Reformation in the 16th and 17th centuries.

The practice of invoking saintly people for their intercession before God in union with Jesus has roots in sacred Scripture. In this regard, Matthew 18:19-20 refers to saints on earth, and Revelation 18:20 refers to saints in heaven. In the early centuries of the Church, veneration and invocation was offered to those martyred for Christ. The practice derives from the doctrine that the saints are united with Jesus in one mystical body (Rm 12:5).

The practice of calling on Mary for aid also appears to be very old in the Catholic Church. An ancient testimony of confidence in Mary is the prayer Sub Tuum, which historians place in the third century:

We fly to your patronage,
O holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.

(Dictionary of Mary, p. 143)

This practice became an area of significant disagreement between Catholics and Protestants. After the crisis of the Reformation, the Catholic Council of Trent repeated traditional Christian teaching on the intercession of the saints, which applies preeminently to Mary:

The saints who reign together with Christ, offer up their prayers to God for men; ... it is good and useful to invoke them suppliantly and, in order to obtain favors from God through his Son Jesus Christ our Lord who alone is our Redeemer and Saviour, to have recourse to their prayers, assistance and support.

(Theotokos, p. 188)

The Synod of Jerusalem held by the Orthodox Church proclaimed a similar position about a century after Trent. Protestants counter that reliance on Mary and the saints detracts from reliance on Jesus Christ, who is our 'one mediator':

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.
(1 Tm 2:2-5 - New American Bible)

A thorough examination of this topic by the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Commission may be found in The One Mediator, The Saints and Mary (Augsburg Press, 1992). An excellent contemporary Catholic reflection on the subject is found in chapter 3 of Pope John Paul II's 1987 encyclical, Mother of the Redeemer. A small subsection of paragraph 38 of that chapter is as follows:

The Church knows and teaches with Saint Paul that there is only one mediator: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all." (1 Tm 2:5-6).
The maternal role of Mary toward people in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power [Vatican II Constitution on the Church, # 60]: it is mediation in Christ.

Catholics do not pray to Mary as if she were God. Prayer to Mary is memory of the great mysteries of our faith (Incarnation, Redemption through Christ in the rosary), praise to God for the wonderful things he has done in and through one of his creatures (Hail Mary) and intercession (second half of the Hail Mary). The latter is addressed to Mary not as to a vending machine but a support person helping us to discern the will of God in our lives. Mary is a volunteer, highly recommendable and recommended, but not a mandatory and inescapable passage.

And to follow up on the last part of your question (I think it got lost in all the kafuffle. ) about followers of the Jewish faith feeling that the movie "The Passion Of The Christ" is placing blame on them:

Matthew 27: 11-26 (from NIV)

11Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.
12When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. 13Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" 14But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor.
15Now it was the governor's custom at the Feast to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. 16At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas. 17So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" 18For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.
19While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."
20But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.
21"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor.
"Barabbas," they answered.
22"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked.
They all answered, "Crucify him!"
23"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"
24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" 25All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children!" 26Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

But the fact of the matter is that the Blood is on OUR hands and washed OUR sins away. He didn't die for Jewish people or for Roman people or for Pilate alone. He died for us.

[streetsoldier]

I believe I can further clear up any misunderstanding about the use of the confessional...it is always wise to unburden one's self with one other, trusted person who will NEVER divulge, to anyone, what is said.

More, the assurance of God's forgiveness is desperately needed, even more today in an age that finds many people who have been abused, battered, etc. and have been conditioned to believe that "even God doesn't love you"...all too common in treating such people.

Therefore, think of Catholic confession as a medieval precursor to modern psychiatry, and you have a better handle on it.

[CajunMama]

I'm still trying to overcome the sting of Hurricanedude's scathing remarks on the Catholic church. I was baptized and reared a Presbyterian and never followed the faith. I grew up in predominately Catholic southern Louisiana but believed in many things that the church believed in. I was churchless for approximately 20 years. I married a catholic but still did not attend any church...weren't Sundays for sleeping in? I had trouble in my marriage and decided I needed to start going to church. The church I chose? A Catholic church so I could go to church with my husband and children. The homily at the mass I attended was on "Family". Spooky...but got me moving in the right direction. My daughter and I made our first communions in the same year. It's been 8 years and my beliefs in the Catholic church are still very strong.

As for reconciliation, you are asking Gods forgiveness for your sins through the priest. And the Catholic church DID NOT rewrite the Ten Commandments. Go through the RCIA program, you will learn about the Ten Commandments and how the Catholic church relates to them. The one thing I love about the Catholic church is how devout many of the Catholics are. They truly believe in their faith.

[GulfBreezer]

By the way, if I am not mistaken, the Pope did indeed endorse Mel Gibson's movie.Mel Gibson's "The Passion" gets a thumbs-up from the pope.

News Story:

Here's some happy news this Christmas season, an unexpected gift for those who have seen and admired Mel Gibson's controversial movie, "The Passion," and wish to support it. The film has a new admirer, and he is a person of some influence. He is in fact the head of the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Pope John Paul II saw the movie the weekend before last, in the Vatican, apparently in his private rooms, on a television, with a DVD, and accompanied by his closest friend, Msgr. Stanislaw Dziwisz. Afterwards and with an eloquent economy John Paul shared with Msgr. Dziwisz his verdict. Dziwisz, the following Monday, shared John Paul's five-word response with the co-producer of The Passion, Steve McEveety.

This is what the pope said: "It is as it was."

Officially the Vatican has avoided formal comment on the film because its contents have been a matter of recently famous dispute and argument. The movie has been accused of being harsh toward Jews, and Mr. Gibson, the film's director, has been accused of anti-Semitism. This summer a group of scholars associated with the U.S. Bishops Council obtained an apparently stolen copy of an early draft of the script and came forward to denounce it as scripturally incorrect and potentially injurious of Christian-Jewish relations. Mr. Gibson protested, and the bishops more or less fled the scene, but the damage was done. Since then, church officials have tended to treat the film as if it were a car crash that happened down the street: It can complicate your life to go there, and it can get messy. Six weeks ago, at a diplomatic reception in Rome to mark the 25th anniversary of John Paul's papacy, I spoke to an important American cardinal about the controversy and urged him to see the film and come to his own honest conclusions. He blinked anxiously behind thick glasses. No, he said, he shouldn't, the movie is a matter of "dispute." (The church is very odd these days in that it dodges those controversies on which it has known authority and expertise, and seems to embrace those controversies on which it seems to have nothing to add but airy non sequiturs. See the comments this week of Cardinal Renato Martino, who said it was not compassionate of U.S. forces to publicly search Saddam Hussein's head for lice. Yes, how brutal. Why, it was like what Saddam himself would have done with a captured foe, except once he was done with him he wouldn't have a head. But never mind.)

John Paul II, who even with the challenges of his current illness has more good sense than many of his cardinals, knew of the controversy surrounding Mr. Gibson's film, and wanted to see it. Producer Steve McEveety, who had flown to Rome uninvited to show the film to as many Vatican officials as he could, gave the DVD to Msgr. Dziwisz on Friday, Dec. 5. The monsignor and the pope watched it together. Where did they watch it? I asked Mr. McEveety in a telephone interview this week. "At the pope's pad," he laughed. In the papal apartments. "He had to watch it late in the evening," Mr. McEveety said of John Paul. "He's pretty well booked. But he really wanted to see it." Afterwards, Msgr. Dziwisz gave Mr. McEveety the pope's reaction. The pope found it very powerful, and approved of it. Mr. McEveety was delighted. Msgr. Dziwisz added that the pope said to him, as the film neared its end, five words that he wished to pass on: "It is as it was." The film, the Holy Father felt, tells the story the way the story happened. A week later Mr. McEveety was marveling at what he felt was the oracular quality of the statement. "Five words. Eleven letters." (I asked the pope's veteran press spokesman, Dr Joaquin Navarro-Valles, if he knew if the pope had said anything beyond "It is as it was." He e-mailed back that he did not know of any further comments.)

"I was kind of relieved--it's a scary thing," said Mr. McEveety. "But Billy Graham saw it and was very supportive, and now JPII. The amazing thing is they're in agreement on the film."

Why is this news? Not only because John Paul has, it seems, broken free of the Vatican apparatus to see the film, and not only, obviously, because of who he is, but also because of his history, the facts of his life. He is a scholar, a poet and former playwright who loves the drama and himself considered acting on and writing for the stage professionally. And no pope has done more for Jewish-Christian relations than he. He has had a profound engagement with Jews and Judaism both since his elevation and before it. He would know cheap when he sees it, and he would know anti-Semitic, too. His approbation would not be given lightly.

Michael Novak, a scholar of this pope, summed it up for me. He said John Paul's life has been marked by "a profound sense of the irrationality and barbarity which fell upon the Jews in World War II, which he saw and experienced, which suffused his desire thereafter to pitch his life close to the Jews. One sees it in his lifelong friendships, in his visit to the Jewish community in Rome, in his unforgettable visit to Auschwitz, and in his deeply affecting visit to Jerusalem. His prayerfulness, his reverence for those who have suffered, and his acute wish that this suffering will be lifted by the grace of God, have been visible and moving to all who have observed him."

"It is as it was." I don't know if those words will settle the matter. But for me they do, and for many they will.

I saw a screening of "The Passion" in Washington last July with about 50 writers, editors and activists. I worried that it might seem to be anti-Semitic, that it might rouse passions in viewers in a way that would cause pain to Jews and others. I came away reassured. It is a moving film, and what it moves you to is tears, and thought. It doesn't rouse, it seeps in and inspires introspection and consideration. It is the story of a Jew who was the Messiah; it is the story of his loving Jewish mother, his ardent Jewish followers, and his Jewish opponents, who saw him as heretical and dangerous.

He is brutally put to death by non-Jewish Roman soldiers, who are portrayed as sadistic in a businesslike way, on the acquiescence of a tired, non-Jewish cynic who then sought to wash his hands of culpability. It is a film that leaves the viewer indicting not Jews and not Romans and not cynical bureaucrats. It leaves you indicting yourself: it leaves you wondering about what your part in that agonizing drama would have been back then, and what your part is today.

I'm glad the Holy Father chose to see it; I'm glad he has spoken; I'm glad his judgment was, "It is as it was." If this ends the controversy, or quells it, and I believe it should, that would be a beautiful gift to everyone this holiday season.

Ms. Noonan is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal and author of "A Heart, a Cross, and a Flag" (Wall Street Journal Books/Simon & Schuster), which you can buy from the OpinionJournal bookstore. Her column appears Thursdays.

[GalvestonDuck]

By the way, if I am not mistaken, the Pope did indeed endorse Mel Gibson's movie.

It's hard to say. The Vatican is denying that the Pope made any endorsement or gave any judgment on the film.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,108948,00.html

[GulfBreezer]

As always, conflicting news stories!!

[GalvestonDuck]

LOL! Yup, not sure what to think, but I still want to see the film.

One thing I'm still trying to find out if is the language is dubbed into English or if there are English subtitles, because it's my understanding that all the actors speak the actual language of their characters (i.e. Latin, Roman, Hebrew).

[streetsoldier]

Uh, those languages would be Latin, "koine" (polyglot Greek trade language), Aramaic and Syriac. Hebrew was spoken only in divine services, and never in common speech.

From what archaeologists have discovered about Jesus' early life, it is considered likely that He spoke Latin, "koine" and Aramaic, and at least had some knowledge of Hebrew for worshipping.

[GalvestonDuck]

Eh, yeah. Serves me right for not paying attention to what I wrote.

Hebrew -- only for divine services. Thanks for that, Bill. I never knew that. Thought it was the same language for everyday speech as it was for religious services.

The website says "All characters in the film are heard speaking the languages they would have actually spoken at the time. This means Aramaic for the Jewish, including Christ and his disciples, and "street Latin" for the Romans. Greek, which was commonly spoken among the intellectuals of the period, was not quite as relevant to the story."

I'd copy and paste but it's a flash-based website and I can't. Interesting background info on the flick.

*smacking forehead* Heck, I should have thought "Roman" and "Latin" looked redundant when I typed it. Some Catholic masses are in Latin, not "Roman." LOL!

I still need to get my ear unclogged. I can't hear myself think. (Don't worry...I have another appointment on Friday)

[Lindaloo]

It was told to me in Church Sunday morning by Father Cleary that the Pope did indeed endorse the movie and spoke of it in the manner as stated here. Father also mentioned the movie and said he and other priests and Bishop Rodi were given a private viewing of it. He said it moved him and he could feel it.

Frick, Sandi and Bill you all have great explanations. Thank you!!

[streetsoldier]

Well, AFLAC, you are partially correct; Hebrew IS the official language of the State of Israel, and is today spoken on the street as well as in "Temple".

Aramaic and Syriac are "dead" languages, and Yiddish, being of Slavic/German origins, was not considered a viable option when the State was founded in 1948. The only other language possible, Arabic, was rejected out of hand for both religious and political reasons.

It is of some interest to note that, under Roman rule, the Sanhedrin had no power to execute anyone; that was a strictly Roman domain. And Rome (read: Pontius Pilatus, the procurator) needed some pretext under Roman law to do so...the charge was "sedition against the Senate and People of Rome", in that He was found to be guilty of declaring a "Kingdom"...which satsified both Roman and Pharisee alike.

Remember what was written on the placard above His cross? "IESVS NAZARENVS REX IVDAEORVM" (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews...a statement of the charge that placed Him there). I employed the literal Latin wording and spelling here for emphasis.

To explain; in ancient Latin, "V" was pronounced as a "U", there was no "J" sound or letter...more, the letter "C" was pronounced "hard" like a "K"...considerably different than "church Latin".

And...during His lifetime, Jesus would have answered to "Yeshua ben Yusuf" (Jesus, son of Joseph).
"Jesus", as spoken today, is a Frankish corruption of the Latin "IESVS".

[breeze]

Tim, in my years, I have grown very open.
Take the time to investigate"...read, search,
and come to know
what YOU, in your heart, believe. It does not
matter what other people think. YOU answer for
YOU. Only YOU and the Good Lord have that
wonderful rapport in your Soul. Do what YOU
feel is Good and Great. I have read up on many
religions, and, have come to love them all.
God is Great in every way, in however many ways
that are "politically" or "spiritually" correct!

[timNms]

Breeze, I alread know what I believe. I was just curious about the Catholic beliefs...just wanted to understand them better, I suppose.

[streetsoldier]

timNms,

I, for one, am gratified that you took the trouble to ask; it is those who do NOT, yet are bitter and contentious anyway, that bother me.

"Seek, and ye shall find; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and the door will be opened unto ye."

[azsnowman]

PLEASE, I'm NOT blasting, bashing, running down etc the Catholic Church BUT.....I don't understand the Worship of Mary, the Worship of Saints.....isn't this Idol Worship of sorts??

Another religion I don't understand and believe me, this mountain, the communties on this mountain were founded by these people, it's the LDS! Michelle was once Mormon, she got fed up with ALL the rules etc, a couple for instance, Women MUST serve their man, The Baptism of the Dead....the list goes on and on.

Like I said, PLEASE don't take this as *Flaming* question about the Catholic Church, I just don't understand that's all.

Dennis

[Miss Mary]

PLEASE, I'm NOT blasting, bashing, running down etc the Catholic Church BUT.....I don't understand the Worship of Mary, the Worship of Saints.....isn't this Idol Worship of sorts??

Another religion I don't understand and believe me, this mountain, the communties on this mountain were founded by these people, it's the LDS! Michelle was once Mormon, she got fed up with ALL the rules etc, a couple for instance, Women MUST serve their man, The Baptism of the Dead....the list goes on and on.

Like I said, PLEASE don't take this as *Flaming* question about the Catholic Church, I just don't understand that's all.

Dennis

Hopefully Linda will explain this well. I'm probably not the best one to help you out with this. I've just always prayed to Saints. My mom had a statue of St. Anthony in our kitchen growing up. She lit candles for specific intentions. She has a different statue now, I think it's of Baby Jesus. Still lights candles. That's just my mom. Let me just say when I'm in a dire situation, I immediately go into my Hail Mary's and Our Father's. As soon as 9/11 happened and I was alerted of that tragic day, I began praying both prayers. It's just the way Catholic's have been brought up. I wouldn't call it idol worship though.

Mary

[GalvestonDuck]

I twisted my knee over the weekend and stretched (but luckily didn't tear) my MCL -- medial collateral ligament. My lower leg went one way as the rest of me was going another way. I heard a pop and saw my foot facing where it should not have been. I went down and hit hard and my first thought was, "Oh sh*t! I just dislocated my knee!" I was alone, in my jammies, at night and didn't know what to do. I rolled back onto my back and held my knee and wished like crazy that my parents were with me. I wanted to cry out for them and hear them answer, but they're both deceased so that's obviously not going to happen.

But, whether out loud or in my mind, when I do that, am I worshipping idols because I'm asking for help from two individuals in heaven who are NOT God? I don't worship my parents but I'm sure they're both up there looking down on me, protecting me like guardian angels.

Of course, I was prayed to God also. That's where I got the help and strength to get up and deal with my injury.

[Skywatch_NC]

I have a learning disability in certain areas of mathematics...it's more in the advanced math areas, now...for ie: algebra, calculus (that's why I could never make it through college in a met program). Well, anyway, back on the subject of Catholicism...my family had some of the most wonderful neighbors who were of the Catholic faith while living in Cincinnati...some of my sister and I's babysitters were from a Catholic family next door...and my sister and I had neighbor playmate friends from other Catholic families in our neighborhood. I've been to two Catholic weddings and what a neat experience to see the beautiful architecture, statues, etc., as I enjoyed being a part of the couple's day who tied the knot. Also, having a learning disability...I had gone to a public elementary school in Cincy for awhile...but my teacher didn't seem to understand me with my LD problem...and so my folks let me go to a Catholic school elsewhere in Cincy (my sister went there, too) and I got some much-needed help there...including a sister/teacher who tutored me on multiplication tables...also, my mother volunteered some time each week in the school baked goods/candy shop. I even thought it a neat cultural experience at the weekly church services as the priest gave some messages and I took part in their communions with my classmates and teachers. (This coming from a Protestant) and I'm no worse for wear...from those experiences! I don't consider my faith superior at all over a Catholic's
...those who want to come down on Catholics...need to keep an open mind.
I even attended a Catholic-operated summer school for children with learning disabilities one time in Cincy and made some awesome friends and had some great times!

God Bless,

Eric

[GalvestonDuck]

PLEASE, I'm NOT blasting, bashing, running down etc the Catholic Church BUT.....I don't understand the Worship of Mary, the Worship of Saints.....isn't this Idol Worship of sorts??

Another religion I don't understand and believe me, this mountain, the communties on this mountain were founded by these people, it's the LDS! Michelle was once Mormon, she got fed up with ALL the rules etc, a couple for instance, Women MUST serve their man, The Baptism of the Dead....the list goes on and on.

Like I said, PLEASE don't take this as *Flaming* question about the Catholic Church, I just don't understand that's all.

Dennis

Thanks for being civil in explaining your confusion, Dennis. I didn't take your post as flaming at all.

Did my post above help at all? (I mean the one where I copied and pasted from the Univ. of Dayton site.)

Now if someone could explain to me exactly what you guys mean by "worshipping" saints or Mary, it would help. I mean, have you attended a Catholic Mass? If you did, you'd see that we pray to God...alot. Standing, kneeling, sitting, kneeling, standing, like Mary said. But, seriously, we don't worship Mary, even though we ask a prayer in her name.

I must admit, since I moved down here to TX, I've seen a lot of how the Hispanic-Catholic culture focuses more heavily on Mary and saints. And on a trip to Mexico, there was a church where people literally crawled the entire way on their knees from their homes to the alter, in humble subservience, to the altar, where they prayed to God and the saint of that church. I don't remember the name of the saint but it was a child who had suffered some sort of physical disability but was healed because of his strong faith. The way it was explained to me was that they weren't worshipping this saint, but praying to him, asking for him to intercede on their behalf because they felt their faith simply wasn't as strong as his. But in no way were they worshipping the saint. Their prayers were filled with "Padre" and "Dios."

As for LDS, I can't really explain that one. They're pretty outside the traditional orthodox Christian teachings even though they claim to be a Christian religion (some call them a cult).

There are several differences in the teachings of the Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Assemblies of Christ, and other Christian churches. I'm sure if we did a poll here, we'd find out a few of us were dunked and a few of us were sprinkled when we were baptized and a handful probably haven't been baptized yet. We'd find that we have differences of opinion in regards to whether the rapture will happen before or after the tribulation as well as the "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and "Turn the other cheek" argument versus "An eye for an eye."

But don't almost all of us read the same Bible and pray to the same God? When we ask the Mighty Prayer Warriors to pray for us, is that any different than asking Mary or the saints to put in a good word for us Up There? We may disagree on some points, but all in all, it's our faith in the Lord that brings us together and helps us fellowship and stay strong in our daily lives. And it doesn't matter who got hosed down in the church parking lot instead of sprinkled in the baptismal or who wears a rosary instead of a WWJD bracelet, right?

[furluvcats]

Amen Duckie. Though our theologies are different, my belief is that if you are saved, you are a Christian, and we all have the same end goal of getting our names into the Book of Life, and our souls into Heaven.