no one is "entitled" to someone else's money. must

[j]

couldn't agree with you more about the Department of Education. That has to go!

[mf_dolphin]

Rainstorm, while we may agree on an personal preference option for some and I stress some of our SSI witholdings, I disagree with most of your other assumptions and conclusions. What you are advocating would be an irresponsible stance for our Government and society to take. IMO Abuses to the system and by our elected officials need to be dealt with but not at the cost of those truly in need.

[Stephanie]

Look...I do not "think" anything of the sort...back off, Helen.

should have the option of allowing the govt to take their money and hold it for them in the hope that they will get a tiny portion of it back before they die. however, people should also be allowed to do whatever they want with thier money.
the ss system is designed to make people subserviant to the govt. it is a vote buying scheme.
i am not upset at you at all. there are legitimate functions for the govt, but it is time people stop looking toward the govt as a means to take money from other people. i dont include you in this.

The other problem I see with this is what happens if and hopefully NEVER when something happens to you and you've elected yourself out of getting any kind of stipend from the government to survive? What will you do then? Who's going to take care of you if you can't help yourself?

I agree that the SS system has now taken on alot more than what it was originally intended for, thus the potential bankruptcy of the system in another 15 - 20 years. Yes, we've become an entitlement society, but I think some of it has to do with the fact that perhaps we CARE that some people have no place to live, no food to eat, etc. Plus, noone wants to see themselves in that predictament so they hope that when the time comes, the government will ultimately help them out. Who would end up paying for the additional homeless shelters and soup kitchens for these people? That's right - you and me! It's doesn't really matter what pot it comes out of.

[therock1811]

That point taken, it is a matter of what some ppl think and obviously rs doesn't think SS is worth it.

[mf_dolphin]

Hear Hear Stephanie!! Well said !

[rainstorm]

Look...I do not "think" anything of the sort...back off, Helen.

should have the option of allowing the govt to take their money and hold it for them in the hope that they will get a tiny portion of it back before they die. however, people should also be allowed to do whatever they want with thier money.
the ss system is designed to make people subserviant to the govt. it is a vote buying scheme.
i am not upset at you at all. there are legitimate functions for the govt, but it is time people stop looking toward the govt as a means to take money from other people. i dont include you in this.

The other problem I see with this is what happens if and hopefully NEVER when something happens to you and you've elected yourself out of getting any kind of stipend from the government to survive? What will you do then? Who's going to take care of you if you can't help yourself?

I agree that the SS system has now taken on alot more than what it was originally intended for, thus the potential bankruptcy of the system in another 15 - 20 years. Yes, we've become an entitlement society, but I think some of it has to do with the fact that perhaps we CARE that some people have no place to live, no food to eat, etc. Plus, noone wants to see themselves in that predictament so they hope that when the time comes, the government will ultimately help them out. Who would end up paying for the additional homeless shelters and soup kitchens for these people? That's right - you and me! It's doesn't really matter what pot it comes out of.

its called choices stephanie. i feel the ss system should be totally phased out and replced by the private sector. people drawing benefits now should continue to get them. it is the same as a person electing to have a child. if you can afford one, fine, but dont go and use the pwer of the govt to reach in my pocket and pay for your child. the same goes for how you use your money. if i can keep my money then i can elect to do anything i want with it. a 21 yr old today would be wealthy if they were investing thier money in a private account instead of having the govt confiscate it from them. but my point is, if i am foolish and dont invest for my retirement, it is my problem, not yours and not the govts.
several things about ss-it is not your money
you can not write the govt and ask them to send your ss money to you in a lump sum whenever you want. they should be required to do as private accounts do. if at the age of 40, you want your money, the govt should send it to you. and as private accounts do, they could charge an early withdrawal fee.
second-unlike a private account, you can not designate a beneficiary for your govt confiscated ss money to go to if you die. if i died now, my govt confiscated money is gone for good, i cant allow someone to receive it at death, unlike a private account.
the real problem is our whole system of taxation where the burden is falling on fewer and fewer producers. the politicians use the tax system to buy votes. everyone should share equally in the tax burden.
right now the top 50% of the producers pay 96% of the income tax. the top 1% pay 30% of the income tax. we should be on our hands and kneees to the so-called "rich" everyday thanking them for the "freebies" we get.
here is what should happen:
a-a flat tax. after a certain income limit, say 20k everyone pays the sae percentge of their income. LETS SAY 10% FOR EASY FIGURING
man A making 40K(MINUS THE 1ST 20K) WOULD PAY 2000 IN TAX
man B MAKING 300K(MINUS THE 1ST 20K) WOULD PAY 28000 IN TAX.
that would be fair to all. all other taxes would be eliminated. no deductions, no freebies.
b-a consumption tax.
if you are 20 today and are expecting to collect ss when you retire, i say good luck yo you. the only way that will happen is if the govt continues to raise the retirement age so more people can die before they have to pay out any benefit(of course, the govt should be forced to give that money to any bene that deceased person so designated). also, the ss taxes will be so high on working people as to make them virtual slaves to the govt, even though most of them will never see a dime of ss "benefits.

[rainstorm]

of govt.

"The Sharon Statement
Adopted in conference at Sharon, Connecticut, on 11 September 1960.


In this time of moral and political crises, it is the responsibility of the youth of America to affirm certain eternal truths.
We, as young conservatives, believe:

That foremost among the transcendent values is the individual's use of his God-given free will, whence derives his right to be free from the restrictions of arbitrary force;

That liberty is indivisible, and that political freedom cannot long exist without economic freedom;

That the purpose of government is to protect those freedoms through the preservation of internal order, the provision of national defense, and the administration of justice;

That when government ventures beyond these rightful functions, it accumulates power, which tends to diminish order and liberty;

That the Constitution of the United States is the best arrangement yet devised for empowering government to fulfill its proper role, while restraining it from the concentration and abuse of power;

That the genius of the Constitution- the division of powers- is summed up in the clause that reserves primacy to the several states, or to the people, in those spheres not specifically delegated to the Federal government;

That the market economy, allocating resources by the free play of supply and demand, is the single economic system compatible with the requirements of personal freedom and constitutional government, and that it is at the same time the most productive supplier of human needs;

That when government interferes with the work of the market economy, it tends to reduce the moral and physical strength of the nation; that when it takes from one man to bestow on another, it diminishes the incentive of the first, the integrity of the second, and the moral autonomy of both;

That we will be free only so long as the national sovereignty of the United States is secure; that history shows periods of freedom are rare, and can exist only when free citizens concertedly defend their rights against all enemies;

That the forces of international Communism are, at present, the greatest single threat to these liberties;

That the United States should stress victory over, rather than coexistance with, this menace; and

That American foreign policy must be judged by this criterion: does it serve the just interests of the United States?"

from bill buckley and the young conservatives.

[streetsoldier]

I subscribed to this statement long before many of the posters here were born (I was a Missouri State Board member in the late 60's); other than updating it to replace "Communism" with "terrorism", it still holds its imperative unabridged.

The "Sharon Statement" is and was the credo guiding the "Young Americans for Freedom", at about the same time of its left-wing couterpart, the infamous "Students for a Democratic Society" (SDS, which went far more radical later on).

Read it, think about it...and should you feel the necessity, respond.

Note to Helen...I didn't "choose'" to become disabled, and I don't particularly like the idea of dipping into the public till...but it IS my money, my account, after all. I paid IN...and without it, I'd have been dead long since. I also understand that my being a SS recipient appears to be inconsistent with the "Sharon Statement", but that's the difference between idealism and reality.

[Stephanie]

I wonder if those same young conservatives would be willing to give up their $15,000 a month pension when they would retire from the Senate or House (assuming, of course, they were elected there to begin with)? This is also paid by our tax money.

Suffice to say, I believe that there are more important things that we need to concern ourselves with first regarding where and how our taxes are being spent.

It would be really great to think that people are responsible (and capable)enough to actually plan ahead for retirement, disabilities, or heck, even taking responsibility for their own actions. HOWEVER, we've just legislated common sense out the window - whatever happens it is someone else's fault. We have bankruptcy laws that are so easy to hide under for corporations, indivduals, and yes, at the rate we're going, even the US government. Do we really think that if we stop providing funds (i.e. income) to support SS and other like programs (i.e. expense), that we are capable of looking out for ourselves? I sincerely doubt it!

Let's say that this does happen. People are laid off, disabled, etc. and have no income to survive on. The government won't have any money to help a person get their basic needs fulfilled, shelter and food. That would probably resort then to looting, stealing, murder, just for people to survive. The cries come out "why won't the government do anything about this?". The answer; THERE'S NO MONEY!

Part of what the government helps us to achieve, if we could all look alittle further than the bridge of our noses is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Whether we like it or not, every little thing that needs to be accomplished costs money. That's reality.

[streetsoldier]

Steph,

Most of those who were present at Great Oak (the Sharon Hill, CT residence of William F. Buckley) in 1960 were in their teens when the YAF was first organized, and few entered politics.

I was but 15 when I joined (1966)...I've never entered the political arena, save as a staffer for a candidate or two, or simply a "brochure-passer" or telephone pollster as a volunteer. All of the young people I remember from those days became housewives, mechanics, teachers, cops, insurance salesmen, what-have-you...yet NONE of them have renounced this statement of basic Constitutional beliefs. And, neither have I.

Please try to get the facts straight before firing a broadside, OK?

[Stephanie]

Steph,

Most of those who were present at Great Oak (the Sharon Hill, CT residence of William F. Buckley) in 1960 were in their teens when the YAF was first organized, and few entered politics.

I was but 15 when I joined (1966)...I've never entered the political arena, save as a staffer for a candidate or two, or simply a "brochure-passer" or telephone pollster as a volunteer. All of the young people I remember from those days became housewives, mechanics, teachers, cops, insurance salesmen, what-have-you...yet NONE of them have renounced this statement of basic Constitutional beliefs. And, neither have I.

Please try to get the facts straight before firing a broadside, OK?

Sorry Bill - I was using that as an example and I DID say IF THEY WERE ELECTED.

Plus, I added more to my post.

[streetsoldier]

NP, "kitty".

[Stephanie]

NP, "kitty".

Cool!

[CajunMama]

Helen, many people are not educated enough to save their money. How many people do you know that go out and blow their paycheck and then have nothing for a rainy day.

Yes, the gov't does use our money poorly in some instances. Like I really care how cow gas effects the atmosphere.

But for cases like Bill, thank God the Social Security system was in place. When a friend of mine died and left two children motherless, thank God for Social Security. They will not be without because the mother paid into Social Security.

If you are so unhappy about the government taking your money, I'm sure there are other countries that you could move to and not have to pay taxes. I do not mean to offend you, this is just my view.

PS - I am in the 28% tax bracket and am putting more into the system than you are but I'm not complaining.

[azskyman]

This is actually the kind of dialogue that can be constructive IF we can find a way to translate frustration into awareness, awareness into education, education into legislation, and finally legislation into votes that make a difference.

There is real merit to the argument for more control of their own funds "by the people," but it is naive to expect that such an action would keep the population from holding out their hands when the going gets tough. As a matter of practice, people want both.

They want a hands off government when it comes to their money...but they want the most protection, the safest roads, a defense that is second to none, the best education, low cost health care, and a certain level of social security if and when they need it.

There is a huge cost to all of that.

Having been an elected official (Republican) at a local level, I, on more than one occasion used the forum to remind people that I had been elected to perform a certain function and that in that capacity, that was what I did. Their option, of course, was to vote me out, or someone else in, if they felt I didn't represent them.

"You Republicans think you know everything, don't you," they used to say to me. "Don't you know it was the PEOPLE who elected you. Why don't you listen to us?"

Then I was re-elected.

It's not the Dem or Rep thing. It's just a people thing. They are frustrated by an issue and can't find ways to channel that into change. That is a very hard thing to do...but it can be done.

The entitlements under Social Security need some serious attention, but without a doubt we all need to know that the safety net is there. And that should be without question for those who have worked hard, paid into the system, and find the need to be there. Even without entitlements, the burden would still be there.

Rainstorm...I admire the passion you show. Really admire it. If even a small percentage of folks looking for handouts could grab onto your spirit and hold off on having that child or work toward a future instead of lean on others to make one, some SOME of what you are wanting to see would surely begin to take place.

I encourage you...if you aren't doing it already...to find a way to focus that energy on the causes you are most passionate about. Locally, regionally, nationally.

Meanwhile, Bill, it is great to see your spirit spike just a bit...but remember those spikes in the past? Don't let them control you. We don't want you down for the count. But we do still want you.

Politics is fun but not a place for the thin skinned.

[streetsoldier]

Steve,

I am hardly "thin-skinned"...if you, or anyone here had ever known me in full flower, I'd have scared the living daylights out of you...passionate, informed, tireless, and utterly ruthless in pursuit of what I saw as "the right".

Physical illness, and the toll it has burdened me with, is the determining factor now. I'm just as passionate "inside"... but my body can't take the pressure as once it could.

You are right in one very important way...I do need to choose my battlefields more wisely. I'm not as "good" as I once was, but I'm as "good" once as I ever was.

[azskyman]

Bill...everytime I see that (ducking) guy swinging the ax next to your (ducking) name, I find myself "ducking! " I'm going to make note of that as I write you this (ducking) note.

I know that you are all those (ducking) things you say you are...STILL TODAY, not in the (ducking) past tense. You know I (ducking) admire you for that too.

It was just a general (ducking) statement about (ducking) politicians in general. Most people don't (ducking) give them the (ducking) credit they deserve for being a (ducking) public servant.

Even though there are some (ducking) politicians who don't know what the heck they are (ducking) talking about, most handle their (ducking) responsibilities in an (ducking) honorable way.

You are a good (ducking) man, Bill. We need more (ducking) people like you in this (ducking) country.

Never had a (ducking) post removed before, but maybe this will be the first (ducking) time.

[mf_dolphin]

quack quack!

[streetsoldier]

ROTFLMAO, Steve...it's a MACE, though; no edges to sharpen, and effective against any armor.

I like that avatar..."The hits just keep on coming!"

[ColdFront77]

I agree that the Social Security system shouldn't be abused; but there are those of us out there that need financial assistance.

There are plenty of people that would love to make a living, like most people, but find it difficult to do so.