The way it was...........

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WidreMann

#21 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:52 pm

Widreman, you have NO CLUE what it was like do you, I RESOUNDLY back Bill on this one, you have a TOUGH row to hoe in front of you, life is too darn short to take a thread like this and run it into the ground!


I guess you don't get the BIG PICTURE, do you. It doesn't matter what it was like. That's immaterial. The whole point of what I was saying was that the view that the past was always better (and this goes back to ancient times when the people believed that there were mythical golden ages in the far past when everything was great but in the present it was going downhill) is a fallacy and an artifact of our perception of our lives and is thus not an accurate representation of what actually happened inasmuch as there is such a thing as what actually happened.
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WidreMann

#22 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:53 pm

I'm with you Chad, I may be a teen like WM but I certainly do not go and disrespect others for wanting to relive the "good old days". In fact I would encourage such.


It's a dangerous path. We have no choice, by the very nature of the universe, but to move FORWARD, not backward. So we might as well embrace the future instead of being dragged out of the past kicking and screaming.
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#23 Postby southerngale » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:06 pm

Thanks for a great thread mrschad and I enjoy looking back on the "good ol' days" - mine not that long ago and some of "you people's" too, like my mom's. I love to hear about when she was a kid and how different things are now.

Miss Mary...I can't tell you how many times my sister and brother and I said we were gonna kill each other. And now, we're all law-adiding citizens and the best of friends. Imagine that. ;)
We did have cable and video games (the local gameroom and an Atari at home) but I spent most of my days (when I wasn't in school) hanging out with my friends....swimming at the country club or in a pond or creek or Pine Island Bayou, riding bikes all over the place--making trails in the woods, playing baseball in the yard or kickball or a game with whatever ball we could find at the time, making treehouses ourselves...from scratch....in a real tree! etc. just hanging out. Many days we'd leave in the morning and we wouldn't come home until evening. My parents had a general idea where I'd be if they needed to find me and it probably wouldn't have taken them too terribly long.

Widremann...I don't want to talk to a wall so I'll just say that maybe when you get older you'll see why adults like to look like back on the "good ol' days"
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WidreMann

#24 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:15 pm

Widremann...I don't want to talk to a wall so I'll just say that maybe when you get older you'll see why adults like to look like back on the "good ol' days"


I know what it's like on a smaller scale. I entered my high school when it first started and was in the first class (there was an abbreviated 10th grade class above us) and everything was new and simple and small. As time has gone on and more people have come in and things become more complicated and less new, the first year stands out more and more in my mind as the "good ol' days" and many of my fellow seniors have felt the same. Was it actually better then? Well, objectively it probably wasn't. The school was physically smaller. There were fewer teachers, there weren't as many classes, clubs, sports and other activities available. But in my mind, it seems like it was a much better time - because of good ol' days syndrome.

And similarly in history, it is clear that many people have had the same problem. As I said above, the ancients had especially bad cases of it. Because there was only legend and no written records for prehistory, the good ol' days aspect of the prehistoric past was exaggerated to the point that the ancients actually believed that everyone lived in harmony and perfection with the gods walking the earth, etc. (although Christians still believe in such a prehistory, but that's a topic for another debate). Somehow I doubt living in caves and primitive huts, dying before the age of thirty or less and having to constantly work for food (and even then, there was no guarantee) doesn't sound like a utopia to me.
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#25 Postby OtherHD » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:23 pm

One sign the tropics are quiet: You find yourself arguing about the good ol' days. :lol:
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#26 Postby streetsoldier » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:37 pm

Frankly, WidreMann, I'm looking forward to your college experience..they will challenge everything you think you know, and IF you survive the onslaught (twice as much crammed into the courses required in half the time to assimilate), you will become a better...and much more tolerant, understanding person.

Come back in 5 years time...it wil be a pleasure to talk with you THEN.
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#27 Postby vbhoutex » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:16 pm

WidreMann wrote:
Widreman, you have NO CLUE what it was like do you, I RESOUNDLY back Bill on this one, you have a TOUGH row to hoe in front of you, life is too darn short to take a thread like this and run it into the ground!


I guess you don't get the BIG PICTURE, do you. It doesn't matter what it was like. That's immaterial. The whole point of what I was saying was that the view that the past was always better (and this goes back to ancient times when the people believed that there were mythical golden ages in the far past when everything was great but in the present it was going downhill) is a fallacy and an artifact of our perception of our lives and is thus not an accurate representation of what actually happened inasmuch as there is such a thing as what actually happened.


Widreman, I don't believe you understand what the BIG PICTURE is!!!! I have read this entire thread. Life was much simpler in many ways "back then"(I was born in 1951). I wouldn't trade my idyllic childhood for anything and would give anything if my children could have grown up like I did. However that would not have equipped them for the world in which they live. I ahve seen NO ONE say that life is going to hell in a handbasket except you!! THE BIG PICTURE is exactly what this thread is about and I applaud MRSCHAD for posting it!!!! BTW, in case you didn't know it, MRSCHAD is only a few years older than you are. THE BIG PICTURE is about HISTORY, TODAY, AND THE FUTURE. If we did/do not learn from looking back at history and the mistakes others/we have made-If we did not look back and remember the GOOD TIMES AND THE BAD TIMES we would be in a very sad state in this world today. There is not one person in this thread that has said that things are terrible now or that liberals are all wrong, etc. YOU ARE THE ONE GENERALIZING everything and not looking at the HISTORY, THE GOOD OLE DAYS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT. You obviously have a very sharp, analytical mind, and I perceive you are one who wants to make the world a better place by your presence. TO DO THAT ONE MUST OPEN THEIR EYES AND THEIR MIND WIDE AND TAKE IT ALL IN AND ACCEPT IT FOR WHAT IT IS AND USE IT FOR THE BETTERMENT OF ONESELF AND THE REST OF THE WORLD!!! THAT IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED BY TELLING OTHERS WHO HAVE MORE THAN TWICE THE LIFE EXPERIENCE YOU DO THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING LOOKING BACK AND WAXING IDYLLIC ABOUT GOOD CHILDHOODS IS WRONG!!! AS I SAID OPEN YOUR EYES AND MIND ALL THE WAY AND TAKE IT ALL IN AND USE IT IN ITS PROPER WAY INSTEAD OF TRYING TO TELL OTHERS THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS WRONG!! AS HAS BEEN STATED BEFORE, I FEEL THAT IS VERY DISRESPECTFUL!!
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WidreMann

#28 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:32 pm

Frankly, WidreMann, I'm looking forward to your college experience..they will challenge everything you think you know, and IF you survive the onslaught (twice as much crammed into the courses required in half the time to assimilate), you will become a better...and much more tolerant, understanding person.


So, instead of acknowledging and refuting my argument on its own grounds, you go off on what amounts to an ad hominem. And I'm the one that needs to be taught a thing or two. Or perhaps you are implicitly agreeing with what I am saying but hope I will learn some respect? I don't know. But what you said certainly doesn't have any bearing on the real debate here.
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WidreMann

#29 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:51 pm

Widreman, I don't believe you understand what the BIG PICTURE is!!!! I have read this entire thread. Life was much simpler in many ways "back then"(I was born in 1951).
Somewhat simpler yes. And it does happen that things inevitably become more complex as time goes on. But better? That's a different story.
I ahve seen NO ONE say that life is going to hell in a handbasket except you!! THE BIG PICTURE is exactly what this thread is about and I applaud MRSCHAD for posting it!!!! BTW, in case you didn't know it, MRSCHAD is only a few years older than you are.
The big picture is that things are getting better, not worse, though things are getting more complex and not simpler.
THE BIG PICTURE is about HISTORY, TODAY, AND THE FUTURE. If we did/do not learn from looking back at history and the mistakes others/we have made-
Is that what I did not just do? Did I not say how all through history people have yearned for the past and the good ol' days? And yet if I understand you correctly, you would say that the period of your childhood was the best in history. But that would mean that all those before you were wrong, for they had yet to reach the pinnacle of achievement that is the period in which you were a child. And then again, who's to say that you too are mistaken and that the real good times are either here now or yet to come? I look back on the days you so cherish and see a time of limited opportunities, the threat of global war, racism and a number of other things that I do not find desirable and prefer instead my own childhood. But you would say I am wrong. I say your wrong. The only way out is to say that everyone is wrong and that their perception of history is mistaken in that it is entirely subjective.
If we did not look back and remember the GOOD TIMES AND THE BAD TIMES we would be in a very sad state in this world today.
It's one thing to look at the past with a neutral eye to see all the good and the bad, but what I see is people looking back at a mythic past - a past that didn't exist - when all was very good but since then has gone downhill. That is unproductive and moreover, wrong.
There is not one person in this thread that has said that things are terrible now or that liberals are all wrong, etc.
Read between the lines. Read the original post:
"According to today's regulators and bureaucrats"
"We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound,
personal cell phones, personal computers, or Internet chat rooms." - implies they are all bad or an indication of decay from more perfect state.
"This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem
solvers, and inventors, ever. " - which is to say that such people are no longer being produced.
Sounds like the writer believes that things are going downhill.
YOU ARE THE ONE GENERALIZING everything and not looking at the HISTORY, THE GOOD OLE DAYS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
I'm the one who is bothering to objectively look at history and see both the good AND THE BAD of the past. You are the ones who have automatically assigned all things in the past into the good category and all things in the present to the bad category. You completely miss the many, many good things of the present and the many, many bad things of the past. While they cannot all be enumerated here or anywhere, there are generally as many bad things as there are good things in each period (excluding periods of war or some other catastrophe). And generally speaking, humans have been progressing forward and things have been getting better. There is no sign that it is stopping, so I am immediately suspicious of people who start claiming that the past was better and that the present is troubled.
You obviously have a very sharp, analytical mind, and I perceive you are one who wants to make the world a better place by your presence. TO DO THAT ONE MUST OPEN THEIR EYES AND THEIR MIND WIDE AND TAKE IT ALL IN AND ACCEPT IT FOR WHAT IT IS AND USE IT FOR THE BETTERMENT OF ONESELF AND THE REST OF THE WORLD!!!
THAT'S WHAT I'M DOING! In fact, that's exactly why I dislike people who start making claims like the ones made in this thread.
THAT IS NOT ACCOMPLISHED BY TELLING OTHERS WHO HAVE MORE THAN TWICE THE LIFE EXPERIENCE YOU DO THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING LOOKING BACK AND WAXING IDYLLIC ABOUT GOOD CHILDHOODS IS WRONG!!!
It's fine to say you enjoyed childhood, but to start turning that into a blanket statement about the state of society (which was, whether you believe it or not, what has been going on) is a completely different situation.
AS I SAID OPEN YOUR EYES AND MIND ALL THE WAY AND TAKE IT ALL IN AND USE IT IN ITS PROPER WAY INSTEAD OF TRYING TO TELL OTHERS THAT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS WRONG!! AS HAS BEEN STATED BEFORE, I FEEL THAT IS VERY DISRESPECTFUL!!
I'm not one for undue respect. I don't respect this kind of thought because I find it dangerous and perhaps in fact disrespectful to those of us are going to be driving or participating in the changes (for the better) in the next steps of our society.
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#30 Postby streetsoldier » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:53 pm

Ok, WidreMann, here it is; you HAVE no salient argument, because you do not have the "life experience" necessary...and your lack of understanding of recent (within the past 60 years, social, economic and political) history is appalling.

You are, without question a bright young man, but you are what I would style as a "tunnel-vision wonder"...expert in a VERY limited scope academically (and perhaps socially) as well.

You, IMHO (and apparently I'm not alone in this assesment) need to grow UP, WidreMann..the sooner, the better. Period.
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WidreMann

#31 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:59 pm

Okay, streetsoldier, so tell me what it is exactly that proves my argument wrong - my argument being that the reason the good ol' days seem so good is because it is an artifact of the way humans perceive their life history and not because they were actually objectively better than the present.

I fail to see where specifics of history have anything to do with this TIMELESS problem (as I have pointed out numerous times).
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WidreMann

#32 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:02 pm

I wonder that if I had never given out my age, I would be getting a completely different response from streetsoldier and others.
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#33 Postby streetsoldier » Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:05 pm

I have neither the time or energy to argue incessantly over this thread with you. YOU, on the other hand, seem to have all the time in the world on your hands to lambast older, wiser souls than yourself; and you are, IMO, doing so deliberately and unnecessarily just to feed your fragile ego.

I am quit of you.
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WidreMann

#34 Postby WidreMann » Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:27 pm

How can I put this. I think I should leave for a while. I think you guys know why. So...this is goodbye for now. I'm sorry.
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