Israel vs Hezbollah Thread #3

[Derek Ortt]

unconditional surrender of Lebanon would be a way to save face.

As I said ebfore, I know what this means... means bombing the civilian population into submission. But if it ushers in long-term peace, then it must be done

[x-y-no]

unconditional surrender of Lebanon would be a way to save face.

As I said ebfore, I know what this means... means bombing the civilian population into submission. But if it ushers in long-term peace, then it must be done

Well, so much for the spread of democracy and the great triumph of the Cedar Revolution.

[stormie_skies]

unconditional surrender of Lebanon would be a way to save face.

As I said ebfore, I know what this means... means bombing the civilian population into submission. But if it ushers in long-term peace, then it must be done

Derek, the problem with that is that the Lebanese government was NEVER fighting Israel - Hizbollah was. In fact, the moderate 60% of the Lebanese government wanted to disarm Hizbollah, they just couldn't, they didn't have the manpower nor the mandate from the people needed to do so without inciting civil war.

So the Lebanese government proper could surrender all day long. That isn't going to change the ground situation one bit - Hizbollah fighters will continue to shoot rockets into Israel and sabatoge IDF soldiers on the ground. And the IDF will be stuck there, fighting them.

And "bomb the civilian population into submission"? It doesn't work that way, hun. First, the civilian population on the whole does NOT support Hizbollah - or at least they DIDN'T, until a couple weeks ago. 60%+ voted for moderate parties in the elections. Many of them - some 40% - are Christians who would never dream of supporting a Shi'ite nationalist party. If they were never on Hizbollah's side, how can they "submit"?

And second, bombing civilian populations does not lead to submission in the ME - it leads to increased radicalism. It has in every country where it has been tried, from the OT to Iraq. Support for Hizbollah has skyrocketed in the past few weeks - not just among the Lebanese Shia, but among Lebanese Christians, Sunni radicals and outside Shi'ite parties and organizations, such as that of Muqtada al Sadr. The more support this organization has, the more money it will have and the more men it will have - and the longer and harder the IDF will have to fight.

[Audrey2Katrina]

This all depends on what you consider "hurt", though - because victory for Hizbollah and victory for Israel are NOT the same things.

I am acutely aware of this... and believe me, they are "hurting" Hezbollah--all the semantic wriggling they care to do with the word victory--notwithstanding.

Please don't take this wrong, Stormie; and I'm sure others truly appreciate the brief history/description of Hezbollah as per your response; but to me it comes off as a bit pedantic--I do try to keep up on things and am well aware of what Hezbollah is--an organization of bloodthirsty terrorists--all the candy-coating they try to give themselves by calling themselves a party notwithstanding as well. The organization known as Hezbollah was "terrorist" from the get-go:

http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourceFileView?file=Hezbollah-History.htm

They began IN Lebanon, and their purpose from their very beginning was the "violent" ousting of Israel AND US forces in that country--that only CAME in the country because it had become a safe harbor for the PLO (another "party" of pure unadulterated terrorists), to launch countless attacks into Israel. Their purpose has ALWAYS been one of violence. Not nearly enough people are aware that only Al-Qaeda itself with its 9/11 attack, has killed more Americans--than this "party" called Hezbollah. Just because 30-40 percent of a nation is ruled by a "party" does NOT give them any legitimacy to claim being a "party" beyond pure semantics--the are, after all is said and done--TERRORISTS. And it also doesn't mean that "only" 30-40" percent support them... as they doubtless have always had support in those areas where they may not have had enough "support" to get elected--but make no bones about it--the support IS there.

Some of your stats are a little off as well. The latest polls show 87% support for Hezbollah in Lebanon--which you might validly argue is consequent to the Israeli raids--however, according to the polling data I've seen on both CNN and FOX, this is only a 20% increase from what support among the general populace they had back in February--LONG before any attacks--which suggests very nearly 2/3 support before all this Hezbollah initiated activity.

I don't care to get drawn into any lengthy debate over this, as it's clear our views on many things are dichotomous. That said I "sort of" agree that the radical Muslims will claim victory--regardless of the outcome. But ya' know, I really don't care what they "claim"... because these are people who claim lies as truth every day. When you place parameters around what your opponent MUST achieve in order to claim victory, all you are doing is playing a propaganda game of victory by definition. What matters is that they get a good ol' fashioned "butt-whippin" and all the distorted presentations (MY opinion) aside--- that's EXACTLY what they're getting!

When a "truce" is finally called, and the UN or NATO comes into the buffer area, you can bet that while the pathological liars of Hezbollah will be crying victory from the rooftops--they'll likewise be licking some very sore--and well deserved--wounds.

A2K

[Derek Ortt]

Stormie,

you and I will have to agree to disagree on this, though I do understand your point (people cannot agree on everything)

However, I was not entirely clear regarding how far I would go. I don't consider the bombings we did in Iraq bombing the civilians into submission. That requires Hamburg type raids. Not at all pleasing to today's media, but very effective

[Stephanie]

Stormie,

you and I will have to agree to disagree on this, though I do understand your point (people cannot agree on everything)

I've noticed this being posted more and more by the members. It's great to see that we can have good, deep, intelligent conversations and accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree on everything. This is REALLY GOOD!

[Brent]

U.S., France agree to Mideast resolution
Deal calls for 'full cessation of hostilities' between Israel, Hezbollah

UNITED NATIONS - The United States and France agreed Saturday on a draft U.N. Security Council resolution that calls for a “full cessation” of fighting between Israel and Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas, but would allow Israel to defend itself if attacked.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14201487/

[Derek Ortt]

and Hezbollah has said that they will coninue fighting as long as Israel is on Lebanese soil... so basically the UN is wasting their time

[Jack8631]

I'm having a hard time trying to understand what the UN thinks they will gain from this. According to the article Brent posted, this resolution would basically forbid Iran and Syria from selling arms to the Hezbollah. They're going to anyway, so for all intents and purposes the UN is drawing both Iran and Syria directly into the conflict.

[x-y-no]

I'm having a hard time trying to understand what the UN thinks they will gain from this. According to the article Brent posted, this resolution would basically forbid Iran and Syria from selling arms to the Hezbollah. They're going to anyway, so for all intents and purposes the UN is drawing both Iran and Syria directly into the conflict.

Well, the idea is to pull back from this impending regional war.

As I understand it, the long-term proposal (after the initial cease fire) is to send in a multi-national force led by the French which will attempt to implement Resolution 1559.

I have no idea if this can succeed. I think it would have had a better chance if it had been done back when 1559 was first passed. But it's better than letting a regional war happen without seriously trying to stop it.

[kevin]

I agree, the current idea of an international force led by the French in Southern Lebanon is the only real chance of preventing this from becoming a war between Israel and Syria in the middle of Lebanon.

Honestly I think the United States should limit itself to financial and material support of this force. It would be better for the multinational force and our image. I wish it was otherwise because the United States does have a role to play in that region, its just our image is far too tarnished.

[x-y-no]

Main thing is we're too much of a lightning rod. We'd attract more combatants to Lebanon.

[JTD]

Fouad Siniora is lukewarm to the draft U.N. resolution at best.

For the first time, I am questioning if maybe the Lebanonese government might be more in bed with Hezbollah than I thought.

[vbhoutex]

Fouad Siniora is lukewarm to the draft U.N. resolution at best.

For the first time, I am questioning if maybe the Lebanonese government might be more in bed with Hezbollah than I thought.

Like 25 seats in their legislature or whatever they call it are held by Hezbollah. I call that deep involvement if not almost control.

[Brent]

Hezbollah rockets kill 11 in northern Israel
Israeli bombs kill 12 in Lebanon; Hezbollah rejects text of U.N. resolution

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah guerrillas unleashed their deadliest barrage of rockets into northern Israel on Sunday, killing 11 people and wounding 14, while Israeli bombardment killed a dozen people in Lebanon as fighting intensified despite a draft U.N. cease-fire resolution.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14196226/

All three cable news channels are live right now reporting on several rockets that have hit Haifa, reportedly injuring dozens(separate from the incident above). CNN reports people may be trapped after a building collapsed.

[rainstorm]

al rueters admits faking pictures of destruction caused by israel. also notice this is the same photographer that took the qana pics.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

something important to remember here as well. it wasnt a major news organization that discovered the faked pictures, but american bloggers.

[Derek Ortt]

now, will the UN condemn Hezbollah for the indiscriminate attack on Haifa today that has killed several civilians?

Also, Syria says the UN resolution is a recipe for war

[Derek Ortt]

was the ARAB part of Haifa that was hit hard

[rainstorm]

"Reuters was notified of the alteration by American bloggers who noticed repeating patterns within the smoke plumes, indicating that part of the image was duplicated several times."

[rainstorm]

was the ARAB part of Haifa that was hit hard

the terrorists dont care who they kill, as long as they kill. this is a 7th centruy movement of people who have not advanced in thier thinking for 14 centuries