Cabbies hand out condoms

southerngale · #41 Postby **southerngale** » Tue May 20, 2003 12:52 pm

So true isobar...so true.

chadtm80 · #42 Postby **chadtm80** » Tue May 20, 2003 1:47 pm

since we know crime is going to happen anyway, should we just pass out guns? It would make it easier for the criminals...they're going to commit crimes anyway. Plus, it would prevent obtaining guns illegally (through other criminals or burglaries). We might actually be protecting a family from the criminal who would break in to steal their guns.

Not even close to the same thing. to commit a gun crime you would need a gun, so giving out guns would promote the crime obviously..

You dont need condoms to have sex, you only need them to protect yourself.

JQ Public · #43 Postby **JQ Public** » Tue May 20, 2003 1:53 pm

Good points isobar and chad.

Kids these days wouldn't even be having sex this young if they were brought up in a good/loving home...broken homes and such lead to an increase in these kinds of things. Since we cannot really stop the divorce rate in America, and b/c good role models are hard to come by...at least giving them a way to protect themselves isn't such a bad thing.

The gun analogy was not really the same thing. I could say...since we know people are cutting down all the rainforests cabby's should give kids seeds to replant/protect the forests. It really doesn't help to draw the analogy.

j · #44 Postby j » Tue May 20, 2003 2:50 pm

SO..don't take this the wrong way JQ just because you are black, but does the fact that the black illegitamacy rate is approaching 70% in this country, and that less than 40% of black children live in 2 parent families suggest that black people in this country are not providing good/loving homes as you suggest?

southerngale · #45 Postby **southerngale** » Tue May 20, 2003 7:34 pm

Not even close to the same thing. to commit a gun crime you would need a gun, so giving out guns would promote the crime obviously..

And giving out condoms promotes the sex obviously...

I realize my gun analogy wasn't perfect. I was trying to make a point and didn't think it through completely. But I don't think it was bad. My main point is still the same...passing out condoms condones sex among youngsters and that's a bad idea! We're admitting defeat by accepting it, and that is sad, not to mention lazy. We should do everything possible to discourage it...not encourage it by making it easier for them. When I was in high school (not that long ago), some kids had sex but most didn't. It wasn't the "norm" to do it but it also wasn't real unusual. I can tell you this, we would have thought that our parents, teachers, bus drivers, whoever had totally lost their minds if they started passing out condoms to us. I can see my friends now..."woo-hoo, look! they said it's ok!" or something to that effect. Just the fact that we knew our parents would kill us kept many zippers zipped.

Kids today are being robbed of their childhood...and it is partly due to the actions of adults.

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You dont need condoms to have sex, you only need them to protect yourself.

Of course that's true. I've never said that condoms don't protect people. They provide physical protection...most of the time.

If the kids want to have sex though, then let them get the condoms themselves. Let them ask their parents or go buy them at the store themselves. My point is that we shouldn't encourage it by just handing them out. "Here you go...free condoms for everyone...have fun kiddos!"

We need to be responsible...we're the grown-ups here. We should act like it.

southerngale · #46 Postby **southerngale** » Tue May 20, 2003 7:40 pm

One more thing...

I may be in the minority here with the way I feel about this, but I don't care. I see the morals in this country going down the drain at an extremely rapid pace and most people don't care. It shows.

#47 Postby **Stephanie** » Tue May 20, 2003 7:47 pm

Southerngale - Whether the majority or minority, every opinion counts!

WidreMann · #48 Postby **WidreMann** » Tue May 20, 2003 9:36 pm

JQ's not black.

Using that same logic, since we know crime is going to happen anyway, should we just pass out guns? It would make it easier for the criminals...they're going to commit crimes anyway. Plus, it would prevent obtaining guns illegally (through other criminals or burglaries). We might actually be protecting a family from the criminal who would break in to steal their guns.

We can't stop crime so why fight it??

Much applause for southerngale...what a great analogy.

No, it's actually a lousy analogy. Crimes are always bad, in fact, they are defined as being acts that are bad. Sex isn't a bad act. Married people do it, and there are many who do it outside of marriage without any consequences. Of course, like anything, there are negatives, and we all know what those are so I won't go over them. But there is nothing inherently bad about sex. There is something inherently bad about shooting somebody (and we are talking about in free society, which doesn't mean, then, executions and deaths in war).

The idea that simply passing out condoms will cause kids to start having sex when they otherwise wouldn't is simply naïve. There are a lot of factors that go into teen sex and the least of these is the availability of free condoms passed out in taxis. In fact, I would venture to say that it has no effect at all in terms of whether or not a teen is going to have sex. However, by having them available, it might mean that a few more sexual acts are protected instead of unprotected, which means that the chances are decreased for pregnancy and STD's. And if it happens that it makes no difference, then fine, no harm done.

One more thing...

I may be in the minority here with the way I feel about this, but I don't care. I see the morals in this country going down the drain at an extremely rapid pace and most people don't care. It shows.

Do you know that morals have been declining since before the Roman times? The past was always better...

I'm not exactly sure why people are so obsessed with eschatology. Maybe it's because they yearn for the good ol' days when they were kids. Well, that's all well and good for emotions, but it means nothing for what's actually happening. The problem is problematic expectations. People expect that as society progresses, there should be fewer and fewer problems. It happens that there in fact just as many problems as before because old problems are cured, but new ones show up. And when new problems show up - especially when we are in older age - it is harder to see them as part of life, but instead we see them as some new ill that indicates decline. Well, society isn't declining. It's doing better than ever before. Don't try to trick yourselves into thinking things were so much better in the past - they weren't.

JQ Public · #49 Postby **JQ Public** » Tue May 20, 2003 10:55 pm

j wrote:SO..don't take this the wrong way JQ just because you are black, but does the fact that the black illegitamacy rate is approaching 70% in this country, and that less than 40% of black children live in 2 parent families suggest that black people in this country are not providing good/loving homes as you suggest?

J don't assume b/c i disagree with what you said i'm black. Oh yeh and i'm not black....so you are really asking the wrong person. Takke a good look at my picture again. (Indian...the most successful/affluent ethnic group/race in the United states...No group has a higher per capita income than Indian-Americans w/ earnings of Indian-American households in 1989 being $56,438 (most recent # i could find)....Indian-Americans have the largest immigration rates to the US behind Mexicans...I don't know one Indian family that has gone through a divorce...no divorces in my family for that matter, which consists of 24 uncles and aunts, 4 grandparents and my parents...indians from india by the way). I think the African american community is in such bad shape in certain areas, because they have been through almost 400 years of discrimination/oppression...w/ only 50-ish years given to bounce back from it. Many black communities are set in a sick cycle of poverty and more poverty, w/ little making it out of there. But those that are getting out are proving to be just as successful as any of their white, hispanic, or asian counterparts. Although most Indian Americans only immigrated here no earlier than the 60's...i doubt we had much to do with the African American turmoil. The blame falls elsewhere :o It is easy to see why they are less successful in America as opposed to other races...or we would be in the same boat as them. But we didn't go through oppression here yet so we're doing well for ourselves...we as in asians.

j · #50 Postby j » Wed May 21, 2003 8:07 am

my apologies JQ.

However, I'd still like to make the same point, and ask you if you think that the blacks are not providing good loving homes?...you laid out some very good points about the adversities they face and have faced, but do you think that that is why their numbers are so high, and is that any excuse for their high illegit. rate?

#51 Postby **Stephanie** » Wed May 21, 2003 8:28 am

Great points Widreman and JQ!

j - adversities any race faces, such as poverty, unemployment, may place a whole slew of stresses on families that could be/have been loving families at one point. I think that their are alot of single parent homes that provide just as much love and perhaps more than a two parent household where Mommy and Daddy are constantly at each other's throat.
I know I just diverged from you main question, but I think there's alot of factors that are involved with the problem. One of them could also be where the woman gets pregnant, she's not married and decides to have the child and not abort it - which is a good thing! :wink:

j · #52 Postby j » Wed May 21, 2003 8:45 am

I'll trade an abortion anyday for a baby born to a single mother.

So back to my point, and to bring your's into it also. Do you contend that being poor, or living "oppressed", being jobless, causes the black race to (as supported by national statistics) copulate at a more furious unprotected rate than any other race in this country?

One more thing I'd like to agree with you on. A loving single parent home, is definitely better than a two parent home with the parents always at each other's throat.

#53 Postby **Stephanie** » Wed May 21, 2003 8:58 am

j wrote:I'll trade an abortion anyday for a baby born to a single mother.

So back to my point, and to bring your's into it also. Do you contend that being poor, or living "oppressed", being jobless, causes the black race to (as supported by national statistics) copulate at a more furious unprotected rate than any other race in this country?

One more thing I'd like to agree with you on. A loving single parent home, is definitely better than a two parent home with the parents always at each other's throat.

To tell you the truth, I really don't know, and I'm being honest! :?

isobar · #54 Postby **isobar** » Wed May 21, 2003 10:16 am

j wrote:So back to my point, and to bring your's into it also. Do you contend that being poor, or living "oppressed", being jobless, causes the black race to (as supported by national statistics) copulate at a more furious unprotected rate than any other race in this country?

The answer is education. I don't see why race is even part of this discussion.

#55 Postby **coriolis** » Wed May 21, 2003 11:47 am

I wasn't going to post any more to this, but you know how that goes....

I like what Widremann said, but the statistics are there. The number of divorces, teen pregnancies, abortions, all kinds of undesirable behavior is up from say, 30 or 40 years ago.
I submit that this is the fallout of the ME generation. Remember that? Back in the 70's the ME generation was touted as having new freedom, new choices. Think about all the things that happened in a short time: The birth control pill, no-fault divorces, Roe v. Wade, Dr. Spock, New Math (J.K about the math) This was a revolution for freedom, self expression, self centereness, and irresponsibility.

Now the children of the ME generation are having children and we are seeing the results.

There was some good that came out of the 60's and 70's (civil rights for one) but the pendulum swung too far and it's time for some correction.

JQ Public · #56 Postby **JQ Public** » Wed May 21, 2003 1:32 pm

Apology accepted j

. I do understand where you are coming from, but race doesn't have to be the centerpiece of your argument. Any oppressed, poor, jobless, unadequately educated person is more likely to experience these types of problems. Look at many asian and african countries that were once colonies to tyrannical monarchies/governments...many are still experiencing problems such as teen pregnancy, abortions etc despite being very reserved nations. The last thing they would do is pass out condoms, but maybe they should? Other examples are people like the Palestinians who believe themselves to be oppressed (up to debate) so they are actually voluntarily increasing their populations to become the majority....and other examples are the USSR's satellite nations...and even Russia for that matter.

I do see where you are coming from coriolis, but i must say the 60's and 70's generations literally picked that pendulum apparatus up and moved it...rather than it being a swing towards one way of living that will be reversed. It'll take much more than stopping cabbies from passin around condoms to reverse it.

southerngale · #57 Postby **southerngale** » Wed May 21, 2003 3:25 pm

WidreMann wrote:JQ's not black.

Using that same logic, since we know crime is going to happen anyway, should we just pass out guns? It would make it easier for the criminals...they're going to commit crimes anyway. Plus, it would prevent obtaining guns illegally (through other criminals or burglaries). We might actually be protecting a family from the criminal who would break in to steal their guns.

We can't stop crime so why fight it??

Much applause for southerngale...what a great analogy.

No, it's actually a lousy analogy. Crimes are always bad, in fact, they are defined as being acts that are bad. Sex isn't a bad act. Married people do it, and there are many who do it outside of marriage without any consequences. Of course, like anything, there are negatives, and we all know what those are so I won't go over them. But there is nothing inherently bad about sex. There is something inherently bad about shooting somebody (and we are talking about in free society, which doesn't mean, then, executions and deaths in war).

The idea that simply passing out condoms will cause kids to start having sex when they otherwise wouldn't is simply naïve. There are a lot of factors that go into teen sex and the least of these is the availability of free condoms passed out in taxis. In fact, I would venture to say that it has no effect at all in terms of whether or not a teen is going to have sex. However, by having them available, it might mean that a few more sexual acts are protected instead of unprotected, which means that the chances are decreased for pregnancy and STD's. And if it happens that it makes no difference, then fine, no harm done.

One more thing...

I may be in the minority here with the way I feel about this, but I don't care. I see the morals in this country going down the drain at an extremely rapid pace and most people don't care. It shows.

Do you know that morals have been declining since before the Roman times? The past was always better...

I'm not exactly sure why people are so obsessed with eschatology. Maybe it's because they yearn for the good ol' days when they were kids. Well, that's all well and good for emotions, but it means nothing for what's actually happening. The problem is problematic expectations. People expect that as society progresses, there should be fewer and fewer problems. It happens that there in fact just as many problems as before because old problems are cured, but new ones show up. And when new problems show up - especially when we are in older age - it is harder to see them as part of life, but instead we see them as some new ill that indicates decline. Well, society isn't declining. It's doing better than ever before. Don't try to trick yourselves into thinking things were so much better in the past - they weren't.

Ok, now I've got a headache. I can't believe I still have to explain this. :roll:

I didn't set out to make some great analogy. I was just making a point and I made it. I guess it wasn't clear to everyone.

All I was saying from the beginning is that is wrong to pass out condoms and thus, condoning sex among kids. It's a bad idea!! Stephanie had said that it's going to happen anyway, so my point was that just because it's going to happen anyway, that doesn't mean we should pass out free condoms and ENCOURAGE it. We should fight it no matter how difficult it is.

In my statement about crime, I was just saying that since crime is going to happen anyway, should we pass out free guns and ENCOURAGE it? Of course not! We should fight it no matter how difficult it is.

It wasn't a real question...I was just making my point. And thanks for the compliment Widremann about it being a lousy analogy :wink:

but even though I wasn't trying to come up with an analogy, but just popping off a comparison to make a point, I think it's a pretty good analogy after all. According to your post, you thought it was lousy because you said crimes are always bad but sex isn't a bad act. Nobody EVER said sex was a bad act. We're only talking about sex among unmarried kids!! I guess you misunderstood that.

I don't know where you got this from: "The idea that simply passing out condoms will cause kids to start having sex when they otherwise wouldn't is simply naïve. "
Please show me where anyone said that passing out condoms would CAUSE kids to start having sex when they otherwise wouldn't. I don't recall reading that from anyone. And I said that it ENCOURAGED it and it does.

As far as the morals declining in this country lately, yes they have declined at a very rapid pace in the last 50 or so years. Forgive me, but I wasn't using historical data from Adam and Eve's time. :wink:

I guess I was referring to more recent times. coriolis made some good points. I'll leave it that because I have to go now.

chadtm80 · #58 Postby **chadtm80** » Wed May 21, 2003 3:50 pm

Alright guys this topic is walking the line.... Lets remember we just discuss and debate... Not put others or there views down.. :-)

Can you feel the love????

Lets just go on to a new convo, we all got our views noted. *not an order, just a suggestion :-)

WidreMann · #59 Postby **WidreMann** » Wed May 21, 2003 4:32 pm

I don't know where you got this from: "The idea that simply passing out condoms will cause kids to start having sex when they otherwise wouldn't is simply naïve. "
Please show me where anyone said that passing out condoms would CAUSE kids to start having sex when they otherwise wouldn't. I don't recall reading that from anyone. And I said that it ENCOURAGED it and it does.

As far as the morals declining in this country lately, yes they have declined at a very rapid pace in the last 50 or so years. Forgive me, but I wasn't using historical data from Adam and Eve's time. I guess I was referring to more recent times. coriolis made some good points. I'll leave it that because I have to go now.

Please show me where anyone said that passing out condoms would CAUSE kids to start having sex when they otherwise wouldn't. I don't recall reading that from anyone. And I said that it ENCOURAGED it and it does." What's the difference? If encouraging them doesn't cause them to have sex when they otherwise wouldn't, then what is encouragement? I don't care if you didn't explicitly state it, it was implicit in what you were saying.

Secondly, you completely misunderstood what I was saying about declining morals. The idea that society is declining is an ever present idea in all cultures, but it is completely unfounded. It is because people look back on their childhood, or even the past in general, and see that things were simpler and then look at the present and see them more complex. Many problems from the past have been solved, so, when looking back to the past, we don't see those problems in the same light. But here in the present, we see unsolved problems, we cannot see the future and so we are more likely to see them in a negative light. It is an artifact from the way humans view the world and not a real phenomenon. In other words, society is not on the decline at all, it is in fact going ever upwards.

WidreMann · #60 Postby **WidreMann** » Wed May 21, 2003 4:38 pm

I like what Widremann said, but the statistics are there. The number of divorces, teen pregnancies, abortions, all kinds of undesirable behavior is up from say, 30 or 40 years ago.
I submit that this is the fallout of the ME generation. Remember that? Back in the 70's the ME generation was touted as having new freedom, new choices. Think about all the things that happened in a short time: The birth control pill, no-fault divorces, Roe v. Wade, Dr. Spock, New Math (J.K about the math) This was a revolution for freedom, self expression, self centereness, and irresponsibility.

Do you think the reason that we are having more divorces is because people are just more willy-nilly with their lives? Or is it because people are finally doing what they should have been doing all along? I know people who grew up in the 50s in dysfunctional homes, where "father knows best" and all psychological problems were just put underground. It worked in the sense that some outside observer might say, "wow, look how happy everyone is" It's called repression and it doesn't work in the end.

I have to agree, though, with your statement, coriolis, about the pendulum swinging the other way. Naturally, after a liberation of some sort, people are likely to go off the deep end. Look at what happened in Iraq. People were looting, going through the streets and doing weird things. So, then, some of this is from an over indulgence in this freedom. But people prefer stability, and in time, things will stabilize again. Thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis.

There will never be a utopia, so anyone who suggests that all problems will go away "if we just did xyz" is a wrong. There will never be a solution to humanity's problems.

Cabbies hand out condoms

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