Israel vs Hezbollah Thread #3

[streetsoldier]

I believe that Ehud Olmert's government will be turned out within weeks; this will give Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu the PM chair, and he's no pushover.

[Audrey2Katrina]

You can blame the UN all you want but Isreal would not have stopped fighting if it were not for us and the stability we are trying to maintain in Iraq.

I'm trying to follow the guidelines posted by Coriolis, but since I was directly addressed in your post, I will respond JUST this once--after which I sincerely hope we can stay on track.

#1. I am NOT blaming the UN for ANYTHING... and I deeply resent people putting words in my mouth. The only thing I was pointing out was that among some 700 plus resolutions from the UN something over 500 of them were in some way or another implicating that Israel should be "condemned" for one thing or another, and the dearth of similar condemnations against FAR more egregous crimes lay in stark contrast. This was pointing out a statistically verifiable FACT--not "blaming" anyone for anything--deal with it, and get over it.

If we weren't in Iraq then we could just ignore these shias.

#2. It seems it is just IMPOSSIBLE for some in here to keep their politics over the "Iraq War" out of things. I'm aware of a very clever ruse in tying it into the "Shia" situations in both countries; but the fact remains that if you make a bed, you sleep in it, (both rhetorical "you's") and that should have absolutely NOTHING to do with Israel's right to tend to their own protection from terrorists. Please leave the Iraqi issue for another topic or thread as it is extremely difficult to avoid that which is strictly against policy on this site in going there--yet there are those, who just NEVER seem to fail to bring it up.

Okay, I've said enough; but I WAS personally addressed... hopefully we can discuss Hezbollah and Israel again, and leave IRAQ OUT of it!

A2K

[Audrey2Katrina]

I believe that Ehud Olmert's government will be turned out within weeks; this will give Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu the PM chair, and he's no pushover.

The last two times he's tried, he's failed pretty badly; but I do agree. "Bibi" would be the kind of leader who would have settled Hezbollah's hash in a heartbeat, and don't think they don't know it. I hope to high-heaven he does get the job back; and then that same heaven protects him.

A2K

[f5]

the UN HATES jews

[Yarrah]

the UN HATES jews

Source?

I was wondering why Israel thinks they can disarm a group such as Hezbollah by using violence. Did they forget that with every bomb they drop on Lebanon, Hezbollah's support grows and more people will join Hezbollah's fight against Israel? Did they forget that as long as Syria and Iran are still hostile towards Israel, groups such as Hezbollah will continue their fight? I mean, as long as the people in Southern Lebanon support Hezbollah and they are backed up with weapons and money from Syria and Iran, Israel will be unable to get rid of Hezbollah.

[stormtruth]

If we weren't in Iraq then we could just ignore these shias.

#2. It seems it is just IMPOSSIBLE for some in here to keep their politics over the "Iraq War" out of things. I'm aware of a very clever ruse in tying it into the "Shia" situations in both countries; but the fact remains that if you make a bed, you sleep in it, (both rhetorical "you's") and that should have absolutely NOTHING to do with Israel's right to tend to their own protection from terrorists. Please leave the Iraqi issue for another topic or thread as it is extremely difficult to avoid that which is strictly against policy on this site in going there--yet there are those, who just NEVER seem to fail to bring it up.

Okay, I've said enough; but I WAS personally addressed... hopefully we can discuss Hezbollah and Israel again, and leave IRAQ OUT of it!

A2K

Simply mentioning Iraq is hardly political. There happens to be a war going on there and the country contains many shias who support Hezbollah. I wasn't discussing who's fault Iraq is or anything and politics have nothing to do with point. My point is simply that the Iraq situation has a great deal do with why Israel backed down. Israel probably wanted to keep killing the Hez terrrorists and eliminating their missiles but they had to back down because we needed them to -- Sistani and the shias in southern Iraq forced us to. The last thing the U.S. wants is the situation in southern Iraq to destabilize. What other reason would the U.S. have for forcing Israel to stop killing the hezbollah terrorists especially during a War on Terror that's all about killing terrorists? The only reason is we were afraid of the shias getting out of control like Sistani threatened. Therefore, we went to the bargaining table with the UN and told Israel to backdown.

You can't completely understand the middle east or the Lebanon-Israel War without including Iraq. If you leave Iraq out you are ignoring a big part of the puzzle and you end up looking silly like you don't what you are talking about.

[kevin]

the UN HATES jews

Stop asserting nonsense, the UN isn't a small group of likeminded individuals. It is an assembly of sovereign states with a UN administrative institution that manages the daily affairs.

[stormtruth]

I believe that Ehud Olmert's government will be turned out within weeks; this will give Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu the PM chair, and he's no pushover.

So you want someone in power in Israel that will defy U.S. interests in the region? The UN and the U.S. both want a cease-fire but you want an Israeli leader that will go against that?

[kevin]

Hizbollah has been strategically blunted so that in the event of a war with Iran they will not be able to fight as long or as hard as could be otherwise expected. Having Israel put more support to them, inflame the Shias, and distract world attention, would be counter productive to our current foreign policy imo.

[Audrey2Katrina]

Simply mentioning Iraq is hardly political.

Quite true; but then again, continuously mentioning it in a context of US involvement with suggestions implying we shouldn't be there, or how much better off we'd be if we weren't...decidedly is. To maintain the integrity of the thread, such speculation/editorializing should be eschewed.

A2K

[Audrey2Katrina]

You can't completely understand the middle east or the Lebanon-Israel War without including Iraq. If you leave Iraq out you are ignoring a big part of the puzzle and you end up looking silly like you don't what you are talking about.

[sic]

If you haven't read the "Announcement" from Coriolis at the top of this page yet; perhaps it would time well spent. I'm not even going to dignify the less than subtle innuendo in that last...uh, sentence. And, I'd like to add (and for the record this is NOT aimed at any individual in particular) The CONSISTENT record of the UN in its actions and decisions against Israel speaks for itself, IMO, and likewise, anyone failing to see that bias is either living in denial, or woefully uninformed themselves--how did someone put it: "looking silly"??? I also concede the much more succinct and cogent opinions of others that do have more than a modicum of validity--I by no means suggest there aren't two sides to the coin--I do, however, like to know it's not, how the say: two-headed.

The UN and the U.S. both want a cease-fire but you want an Israeli leader that will go against that?

Does anyone really think that anything the UN or the US does will in any way change the mentalities that prevail in the Middle East? Okay, perhaps that was a rhetorical question; but once again we seem to see that there are those who don't mind seeing Israel being held to standards they refuse to hold Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and countless groups of terrorist organizations to. Yup... now that's consistency.



A2K

[stormtruth]

Does anyone really think that anything the UN or the US does will in any way change the mentalities that prevail in the Middle East? Okay, perhaps that was a rhetorical question; but once again we seem to see that there are those who don't mind seeing Israel being held to standards they refuse to hold Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and countless groups of terrorist organizations to. Yup... now that's consistency.

A2K

Well, since the U.S. helped make the cease-fire the U.S. government is the one holding Israel to these standards. What are you trying to say that the US is being cowardly by asking for a cease-fire? The US did not have to agree to this. The US must have thought a cease-fire was extremely important. They must have thought long and hard about it before they came to this decisoin. You have yet to have a good explanation for why you say the USA's desire for a cease-fire is a bad idea. Why are you so critical of the US government's policy?

[f5]

the UN HATES jews

Source?

I was wondering why Israel thinks they can disarm a group such as Hezbollah by using violence. Did they forget that with every bomb they drop on Lebanon, Hezbollah's support grows and more people will join Hezbollah's fight against Israel? Did they forget that as long as Syria and Iran are still hostile towards Israel, groups such as Hezbollah will continue their fight? I mean, as long as the people in Southern Lebanon support Hezbollah and they are backed up with weapons and money from Syria and Iran, Israel will be unable to get rid of Hezbollah.

you need a source you can't see the UN hatred for Israel you can't see that 3/4 of the UN resoulutions pass in its 60 yr history condem israel more than any other nation .they have not passed one NOT ONE resoulution condeming the palestinians for their homocide attacks and you need a source that the un is a joke.here the source, the UN ITSELF the oil for food program was the beginning of the proof

[stormtruth]

the UN HATES jews

Source?

I was wondering why Israel thinks they can disarm a group such as Hezbollah by using violence. Did they forget that with every bomb they drop on Lebanon, Hezbollah's support grows and more people will join Hezbollah's fight against Israel? Did they forget that as long as Syria and Iran are still hostile towards Israel, groups such as Hezbollah will continue their fight? I mean, as long as the people in Southern Lebanon support Hezbollah and they are backed up with weapons and money from Syria and Iran, Israel will be unable to get rid of Hezbollah.

you need a source you can't see the UN hatred for Israel you can't see that 3/4 of the UN resoulutions pass in its 60 yr history condem israel more than any other nation .they have not passed one NOT ONE resoulution condeming the palestinians for their homocide attacks and you need a source that the un is a joke.here the source, the UN ITSELF the oil for food program was the beginning of the proof

I hope the "homocide attacks" remark is not meant to ridicule gays because that is unacceptable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homocide

The US also agreed to the cease-fire so blaming just the UN or Olmert for it as pointless.

[f5]

the UN HATES jews

Source?

I was wondering why Israel thinks they can disarm a group such as Hezbollah by using violence. Did they forget that with every bomb they drop on Lebanon, Hezbollah's support grows and more people will join Hezbollah's fight against Israel? Did they forget that as long as Syria and Iran are still hostile towards Israel, groups such as Hezbollah will continue their fight? I mean, as long as the people in Southern Lebanon support Hezbollah and they are backed up with weapons and money from Syria and Iran, Israel will be unable to get rid of Hezbollah.

you need a source you can't see the UN hatred for Israel you can't see that 3/4 of the UN resoulutions pass in its 60 yr history condem israel more than any other nation .they have not passed one NOT ONE resoulution condeming the palestinians for their homocide attacks and you need a source that the un is a joke.here the source, the UN ITSELF the oil for food program was the beginning of the proof

I hope the "homicide attacks" remark is not meant to ridicule gays because that is unacceptable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homocide

The US also agreed to the cease-fire so blaming just the UN or Olmert for it as pointless.

fox news uses that word to descride exactly what they are cold blooded killers which happen to be terrorist which is a word reuters refuses to call them this is the same organization which pulled a dan rather by publishing false photos

[Audrey2Katrina]

Does anyone really think that anything the UN or the US does will in any way change the mentalities that prevail in the Middle East? Okay, perhaps that was a rhetorical question; but once again we seem to see that there are those who don't mind seeing Israel being held to standards they refuse to hold Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and countless groups of terrorist organizations to. Yup... now that's consistency.

A2K

Well, since the U.S. helped make the cease-fire the U.S. government is the one holding Israel to these standards. What are you trying to say that the US is being cowardly by asking for a cease-fire? The US did not have to agree to this. The US must have thought a cease-fire was extremely important. They must have thought long and hard about it before they came to this decisoin. You have yet to have a good explanation for why you say the USA's desire for a cease-fire is a bad idea. Why are you so critical of the US government's policy?

Okay, I'm going to try this one LAST time--then I'll leave it to others. It is obvious that either you did NOT read the multii-mentioned "announcement", or that you are just so bullheaded about looking to prove "I'm right and you're wrong--so there!!", that you simply just don't CARE about the announcement, because by god you're GOING to get in the face of anyone who dares oppose your "opinion" (and ultimately that's exactly ALL that they are), and continue an argument ad nauseum until your perceived opponent is verbally beaten into submission. --ain't gonna happen.

The greatest violation I see in your posts (and yes in THIS one I am equally as guilty, solely for the purposes of hopefully putting an end to the back and force "dialogue" in what is supposed to be an "express your news and/or statements and be DONE with it" thread) is the repeated predilection for addressing your responses directly AT me... with all the "you" and "your" ... and "you think"... etc. etc. etc... Look, pal, I'm putting in black and white exactly what I feel, and I don't need to "explain" anything to you in terms of justifying my opinions, nor do you to me; likewise I don't need you or anyone else to interpret them for me--or anyone else--Capice? As someone else doubtless more eloquently, certainly more succinctly put it, I'm NOT going to change your opinion, and you certainly aren't going to change mine. The time to stop beating a dead horse is NOW. This is supposed to be a forum for informed discussion, and NOT be reduced to a "back-and-forth" debate between two opinions neither of which will ever change.

Now if you wish to get back to simply making statements/opinions, related to this thread, and without all the straw-man presentations, or efforts at propping up a "back-and-forth" debate... then please, by all means, let's get back on THAT track.

A2K

[Audrey2Katrina]

You have yet to have a good explanation for why you say the USA's desire for a cease-fire is a bad idea. Why are you so critical of the US government's policy?

Classic example of what the above post addresses. *sigh*..

Bottom line I haven't "criticized" the US Policy at all. The statement that I have been is both unsubstantiated and non sequitur. Secondly, what I HAVE stated is that in my opinion the state of Israel is entitled to take what measures they deem necessary for their self preservation and right to live without incessant attacks from terror groups and their supporters. What the US or any other entity has to say on the matter is IMO, irrelevant with regard to that issue. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!

A2K

[Yarrah]

fox news uses that word to descride exactly what they are cold blooded killers which happen to be terrorist which is a word reuters refuses to call them this is the same organization which pulled a dan rather by publishing false photos

I'm not so sure if Hezbollah fighters are really terrorists. Their sole purpose isn't to instill fear (which would make them terrorists), but to destroy the Israeli state (which makes them guerillas). Ow, and by the way, I wouldn't believe everything Fox News says. They tend to be a bit biased towards countries they don't like (according to Fox News, I'm living in a country full of baby-killers and pot-smokers).

Now some of the latest news. NOS reported that Olmert wants Italy to lead the UN-troops and not France. Mainly because Italy has promised to send more troops then France. Also, Olmert doesn't want any troops from Muslim countries that don't acknowledge Israel (i.e. Indonesia and Malaysia) to be active in Lebanon.

What do you think, does Israel have a right to meddle with who's leading the UN-troops and from which countries the troops will come?

[stormtruth]

Why Israel ever agreed to this "ceasefire" is beyond me. Olmert is an idiot and needs to go. This war didn't help them at all. During this "ceasefire" Hezbollah is simply getting re-armed for the next conflict.

I agree with you completely, Brent. It's tragic that the media, in my opinion, pressured yet another Neville Chamberlain into more "appeasement" mentality... which will ultimately cause far greater tragedy. Time will tell; but this bodes ill, as I see it. They should have ignored all the press and got the job done!

A2K

Here you agreed with Brent that Israel should not have agreed to the ceasefire. If you don't agree with the ceasefire you are criticizing us policy because the us helped create the ceasefire. How can you have it both ways where you can dislike the ceasefire and agree with the usa on the ceasefire?

[kevin]

Israel has absolutely every right to act in her national interests. Which are not advanced, and are in fact attacked by placing an international force that consists largely of enemies of Israel to her north. If those states want to keep peace between the State of Lebanon and the State of Israel, it is an absolute condition that they acknowledge the existence and rights of Israel on the world stage.

If they were _just_ from countries that didn't support the existence of Israel and I was the Israeli Prime Minister, I would do everything in my power to limit their effectiveness i.e. attack them.

Just the cold hard reality of power politics. International institutions and norms just mask the basic realist fact that all politics among nations is about power.