Kids these days!

[brunota2003]

I do ont fit the rule of 12...(or do I *Twilight Zone music* )

[coriolis]

OK EVERYBODY. Don't forget the rules about "debating." There are some serious differences of opinion and no one is going to change anyone's mind. Violators will be spanked without discrimination.

Having said that, I'll give my thoughts and I don't care if anyone agrees or not because I won't respond.

My 15 year-old just came home from boot camp. It was amazing how the staff of the boot camp could extract compliance from these kids, the worst of the worst, without corporal punishment. It makes you think.

I think that physical punishment is a last resort and a bad one at that. It's usually an indication that the parent is ineffective at other ways of disciplining the children. It takes time and effort to properly discipline children. I think that physical discipline is a short cut for parents who are not equipped or don't have the committment to lead by example and exercise the subtle, yet effective ways of influencing their children. I sense a difference between the two philosophies in that the parents who employ physical punishment think that their goal is to CONTROL their children, rather than to TEACH and INFLUENCE their children.

I was on the receiving end of a few beatings as a child. That's all it took. I gave my parents very little trouble out of the fear of them. Did it really teach me to BE good? Probably not. It did teach me to ACT good. I became GOOD at not getting caught! My parents were busy in their careers and interests. My father never did a thing with me. So I learned to not cause trouble and things were peaceful. At the same time, I can tell you that I did not have that emotional closeness with them, and could never say that I loved them. So did the corporal punishment make me a good person? I'd say not. A closer relationship probably would have.

Now that I have children I've been on a learning curve. Mistakes were made. Some bad results were obtained. The absolute most important things are to pay attention to the children, devote time to them, make them feel like they are important. Answer their questions. Be consistent. Instead of making threats, just act decisively. Threats are the emotional equivalent of violence. They are a short cut to putting forth the effort to really deal with an issue.

The example of the parents is paramount. Kids can detect hypocrites a mile away. Saying one thing and doing another dooms you to failure. How can you tell your kids to not swear when you swear? Playing the age game is another weak tactic. If you smoke, you're going to tell your kid that he can't smoke because he's "not old enough?" That's pure hypocrisy. It's either right or it's not right, period.

Spanking a small child before the age of reason may be approprite in a few cases. A 2-year old doesn't understand a lot of things. But they do understand a swat. But Once the child can start to reason, there's much better ways to discipline the child. If a parent has to resort spanking a 3 or 4-year old on a frequent basis, I'd say that the parent has already lost. I've seen precious few instances of a parent "spanking out of love." In almost all cases it's out of anger and frustration because they don't know what else to do.

The parents have to build the relationship with their children. It has to be based on love, respect, kindness, and caring. It takes time. The kids will return whatever treatment that they receive, for good or bad.

Sure, you can beat a kid into submission, but then what do you have?

[brunota2003]

Sure, you can beat a kid into submission, but then what do you have?

you get me...literally...
EDIT: of course in my younger days...now its only when I really step out of line...

[wxmann_91]

Very well said, Coriolis.

Yes I have been spanked a couple of times but never since around 10. Frankly I can't even remember what I was spanked for.

[Regit]

Coriolis,

Whether you respond or not, I'd just like to mention that your post was concise, well-thought-out, intelligent, and absolutely correct.

Your point about Acting vs. Being is a great point.

Furthermore, your point about teaching is what many psychologists agree is the key when dealing with a child. Multiple studies have shown that explaining to a child what is right vs. what is wrong, and most importantly WHY there is the difference is extremely important. When disciplining a child, the situation should be explained to them.

This is why the "because I said so" type of parents are considered by many child development experts to be ineffective.

[angelwing]

You have to take into consideration also how the parent was raised, if they even had a childhood or parents to take care of them, their emotional scars might extend to the child. It had happened in my case, and the punishment, even for trivial things was brutal, but I realized why it was the way it was later when I got out of high school.

This debate makes me wonder how many parents who abuse their kids do it only because that's the way they were brought up and really know no other way?

[Regit]

angelwing,

You're onto something with your last sentence. A lot of times, abuse is learned behavior. This can also be seen in child molesters. They were usually abused as children. Also, a large number of child molesters are under the age of 10. They're simply repeating what's been done to them.


Back to the discipline topic,

I think it's important to look at discipline as a learning process. The child is depending on you to teach what is right and wrong.

Apply it to any other type of learning. If you ask your child what 2+2 is and they say 5, there are options as to what to do.

You could spank them. They were wrong after all. But kids are a blank slate. How are they to know the answer is 4? If you spank them what have you done? They still don't know the correct answer is 4.

Even if you tell them the answer, you haven't made them remember that the answer is 4. You've only made them remember that the answer is not 5.

[CajunMama]

Regit, so you believe that all teenagers are "capable of reasoning exactly the same as an adult".

This isn't open for serious debate. The Period of Formal Operations (ability to think and perform abstractly) begins at ages 11-15, but usually 12. This is why the threshold for charging a minor as an adult is generally set at 12. However, some people never enter this stage. The keyword there is NEVER. So, getting older does them no good.

So then why are some states wanting to raise the age that a teenager can get their license? Why did the drinking age go from 18 to 21?

This is partly connected to a feeling of invinicibility. As you get older, you become more aware of your own impending mortality. Making a stupid decision doesn't demonstrate a lack of ability to determine right from wrong.

Why is it a crime for someone to have a sexual relationship with someone under the age of 18?

In MOST states (and most western societies) it's 16, but regardless, this is a number chosen because of post-victorian social standards. There were generally no ages of consent a few centuries ago. Finally it was set at 12 in parts of Europe. It crept up into Victorian times and eventually came to settle at 16. There was no research done to pick this number, it's just a feel-good number.

The fact that this number was chosen decades ago has no consequence in the study of Psychology.

Regit, do you have any kids?

Biological no, but have had guardianship and have, all totaled, had hundreds of children under my care during my life.

Additionally, I've studied child development.

using this analogy a 12 yo could be sentenced same way as a 20 yo since they have the same mind as a adult as u claim.

As I pointed out above, 12 is generally the cut-off age. It has gone as low as 11.

Regit, I beg to differ on what you replied to me. Read these studies by professionals about the development of the teenage brain.

http://www.edinformatics.com/news/teenage_brains.htm

Teenage driving...(make sure you notice the part of "lack of maturity and rational thinking of older drivers") I got my dl at the age of 15. Was i too young and immature to have that responsiblity? You bet. We're my kids too young to get their learners permit at 15 and their license at 16? You bet. http://web.singnet.com/~robin281/gp2.htm

As for statutory rape, the law is there to protect teenage girls. I googled statutory rape and i was unable to find anything about "post victorian standards". http://www.nyx.net/~jkalb/misc/statutor ... /statutory


Have you raised these children 365 days a year for 18+ years? I've raised two of them. I've very rarely been away overnight from them. Yes i swatted them when they were little. Timeout did no good. Have they ever been in trouble with the law? No. Have they been in auto accidents? Yes and it could have been avoided had he been more mature.

[dean]

Seriously, there has to be a balance between corporal punishment and other ways of discipline.

I cannot understand some adults' attitudes these days, especially on this forum and from my experiences in daily life. Kids are bad. Kids are stupid and they know nothing. Kids destroy things and vandalize. Kids are crazy lunatics who try risky stunts. I'm sorry but a miniscule minority does not represent us all.

ok, coming from a teens standpoint, who's fault is it that we are out of control, stupid, and lunatics. is it not the governments fault for taking away money from schools? is it not the job of the parent to CONTROL their kids. i mean, a lot of the people who are saying that kids are out of control are at the age where they might have kids, and all they are saying is that it's the kids fault for being "bad". how can a kid turn out "good" if the parents dont give a rats a** about their kids. who dont give them attention. who would rather turn on the tv for their kids instead of playing with them. i mean, you cant blame a child for being bad at a young age, a lot of that lands on the parents shoulders. and since i'm only 16, i guess by what you're saying as the truth i'm a little hellraiser too, i dont know anything, and i'm going to end up the streets. yea, right.

[dean]

kids are not out of control, parents dont know how to adapt to the new "age" of kids.

Many of you are nothing but spoiled babies.

so, really, what you're saying is that you want to make your kids if they are under 18, pay for the gas, the electicity, the computer, make the food, pay the house payment, and whatever else they use?

[dean]

What do you guys mean kids today are out of control?Aren't kids always out of control?My parents have always told me stories about stupid things they did when they were kids,I don't think what kids are doing today is anything new.Kids will always be out of control...because they are kids.They'll eventually grow out of it,especially if they have good parents that keep a watchful eye over what they do and have good discipline for their actions like my parents did.

Your parents shot teachers and students? Your parents were drug users?



.

ok, you're judging all the teens in the world by some very bad instances. you're saying i go into school, shoot everyone, and then go shoot some heroine? sorry, try again. have you ever thought about all the good things kid and teens do? honestly, have you? or do you just focus on the negatives like every other adult in this country?

[dean]

The kids know it and threaten the parents with calling the cops on them. These same kids have zero respect for anybody. I've seen it myself -- a mother and daughter screaming at each other, with the daughter taunting the mother that she'd call the police if a hand was laid on her.

That girl was such a terror, I wanted to smack her myself.

shouldn't it be the mother's responsibility to be the bigger person, and not try to fight with her daughter? and once again, you are judging all kids and teens by one bad instance. i know if i went through this entire topic, i could easily find atleast a half page of comments with you guys judging us because of something else you saw, thinking that we are all like them.

[senorpepr]

You have it all wrong...

Times have changed, our kids are getting worse.
They won't obey their parents, they just want to fart and curse.
Should we blame the government, or blame society, or should we blame the images on tv? No!
Blame Canada!

[CajunMama]

kids are not out of control, parents dont know how to adapt to the new "age" of kids.

Many of you are nothing but spoiled babies.

so, really, what you're saying is that you want to make your kids if they are under 18, pay for the gas, the electicity, the computer, make the food, pay the house payment, and whatever else they use?

If you're going to quote me, please quote all i said so it will make sense to others reading the post.

You want to be treated as an adult? Accept the responsiblities that come with being an adult.

[dean]

kids are not out of control, parents dont know how to adapt to the new "age" of kids.

Many of you are nothing but spoiled babies.

so, really, what you're saying is that you want to make your kids if they are under 18, pay for the gas, the electicity, the computer, make the food, pay the house payment, and whatever else they use?

If you're going to quote me, please quote all i said so it will make sense to others reading the post.

You want to be treated as an adult? Accept the responsiblities that come with being an adult.

ok, first off, i dont care if other members dont get where i'm coming from, if they want to know, they can go back and read your post, but that wasnt my point, because i was talking directly to you. second off, who are you to tell me that i dont act like an adult and that i wont accept responsibilities?

[wxmann_91]

You want to be treated as an adult? Accept the responsiblities that come with being an adult.

That's sorta vague...

What does it mean to be treated as an adult and to have responsibilities of an adult? As people our opinions should all be heard even if we are under 18. As people we all have responsibilities.

Just wondering CM, do you have children?

I think the term "adulthood" is really vague. IMHO it's definitely not reaching a certain age limit.

[CajunMama]

no wxmann, it's not vague at all. And yes i have children. Do you read my posts?

And Dean, like i nicely said, if you are going to quote me, quote me entirely please.

[wxmann_91]

I just don't think the notion of "we have to do as adults do to be treated like adults" is clear. As rational people I think we all have responsibilities of a) supporting others and b) supporting ourselves. The are the universal responsibilities. And I think once we accept these we can be treated as "adults". That usually means by about 5 years old everybody should be treated as such. If parents don't do that then they are doing a disservice to their children.

Also I wanted to clarify that "supporting ourselves" does not mean paying the bills, etc. It means knowing how to function and to learn how to become independent.

[CajunMama]

But wait....i thought that teenagers wanted to be treated as adults. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Responsiblity comes with adulthood. Look around at the adults you know. Tons of responsiblity.

So you want to be treated as an equal but have the "older" people do everything. That's what i'm getting out of what you're saying. I'm not seeing where you are supporting other adults. In fact, i'm not getting what you're saying at all. Maybe cuz it's 2:15am?

[dean]

But wait....i thought that teenagers wanted to be treated as adults. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Responsiblity comes with adulthood. Look around at the adults you know. Tons of responsiblity.

So you want to be treated as an equal but have the "older" people do everything. That's what i'm getting out of what you're saying. I'm not seeing where you are supporting other adults. In fact, i'm not getting what you're saying at all. Maybe cuz it's 2:15am?

teenagers are not adults though, they can't live out in the real world yet because most of them are still in high school and dont yet have their diplomas. however, on another note, many of us teens do take on a lot of resposibility, as much as an adult, no, but we shouldn't have that much anyway until after high school.