500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

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Ed Mahmoud

500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#1 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:36 pm

For more than 60 years Britain’s Bomber Command led by Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris has been vilified for causing up to 500,000 deaths in the carpet bombing of Dresden during World War II.

But now, after a four-year investigation, a panel of German historians has said that the true number of dead from the Allied air raids in January 1945 was between 18,000 and 25,000.

They reached the figure after combing through death certificates, hitherto sealed eyewitness reports, registration cards for people made homeless and hospital records.

It now emerges that the high number of deaths from ‘Operation Thunderclap’ was a myth invented by the Nazis, perpetuated by Communists and re-born in the past decade to serve the aims of ultra-nationalists.

The myth took form barely after the vapour trails of the bombers disappeared in the skies over the city.

It suited the Nazi propaganda machine to claim that half-a-million women and children had been incinerated in the firestorm. It helped persuade a struggling population that this was awaited them all unless they fought for Nazism with their last breath.

Then the Communist East Germans perpetuated the myth, mindful that it served their purposes by showing the destructiveness of capitalism and fascism combined.

In the last decade neo-Nazis have sought to keep the lie alive as they praise many of the policies of the Third Reich.

By the mid 70’s historians were beginning to question the real total of casualties.

Although many records lay in the still-Communist archives of Dresden, the accepted figure dropped to between 50, 000 and 150,000 deaths, based on Nazi German records and declassified Allied intelligence reports.

Then, when the wall fell and more records became available, the accepted number dipped even further, to 35,000.

A fortnight ago the myth was revealed as just that. A panel of German historians tasked by the modern-day rulers of Dresden said the dead numbered between 18,000 and 25,000.

They worked through miles of archived paperwork for the past four years to arrive at their figures, using death certificates, hitherto sealed eyewitness reports, registration cards for people made homeless and hospital records.

The historians found most people died in cellars, suffocated when the oxygen was sucked out of their hiding place or killed by the concussion of the falling bombs.

Strange climactic conditions combined to create 2,000 degree centigrade “firestorms” which whipped walls of flames through the heart of the city, incinerating everything in their path.

By contrast Operation Gomorrah, the saturation bombing of Hamburg, did indeed cause at least 50,000 deaths.




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1078529/WW2-Dresden-bombing-killed-far-fewer-people-half-million-new-records-show.html
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Ed Mahmoud

Re: 500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#2 Postby Ed Mahmoud » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:40 pm

Even if the numbers are much lower than most people think, there were still many innocent women and children. I don't trust the bureaucratic and nanny-state tendencies of the EU, but if there is never another war between European powers, it will have done at least one thing right.
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Re: 500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#3 Postby Cryomaniac » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:48 pm

Ed Mahmoud wrote:Even if the numbers are much lower than most people think, there were still many innocent women and children. I don't trust the bureaucratic and nanny-state tendencies of the EU.


My opinion is that the numbers are somewhere in between those quoted, probably somewhere close to 30k.

This may not be a popular opinion, but I will justify the bombing of Hiroshima before the bombing of Dresden.

Bomber Harris is as much a war criminal as some of those hung at Nuremberg.
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Derek Ortt

Re: 500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#4 Postby Derek Ortt » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:17 pm

that is why I do not believe Nuremberg should have ever happened. Was nothing more than victor's INJUSTICE

How were the Soviets, by far the worst criminals of the war, not included. Mass rape was NEVER considered acceptable during war... yet they went ahead and did it and went unpunished

As for Dresden... everyone makes a big deal about the camps... yet one night in Dresden was the equivalent of more than a week of Treblinka at its height. Throw in the American raid on Berlin in Feb 1945 which also killed about 30K...

Also, it is not widely known, but it was CHURCHILL who first ordered the deliberate targeting of civilians in 1940. The tactic worked out great as Hitler took the bait and switched the raids from the RAF fields to the cities, letting the RAF recover. However, Churchill AND King George should have been tried as criminals as well since these were deliberate attacks on civilians (King George had the power to dismiss Churchill at any time... yet failed... though based upon the precedent we set with Japan, maybe King George could have got off)
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Re: 500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#5 Postby Ptarmigan » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:29 am

History is not all black and white. Japan was just as bad as the Nazis were in Asia. Rape of Nanking comes to mind and the occupation of Korea. I have read that Nazis did dread being prisoners of Soviet Union. They ready be in American POW camps. The Soviet Union and Nazis were allies before Nazis invaded Soviet Union in 1941. I have read that many Communists did support the Nazis, but later turned against them when they invaded Soviet Union. In fact, Communists had rallies when Hitler and Stalin signed the Stalin-Hitler Pact. After World War II ended, Communists supported Nazis again. Both Nazis and Communists share the same goals, but they have differences.
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/fa ... hitler.htm

Interestingly, many Nazis were recruited by the Soviet Union, mostly scientists and Gestapos. Rumors have it that the Gestapo chief, Heinrich Mueller worked for the Soviet Union. The AK-47 was developed from a Nazis assault rifle that never went into use. Also, the space program, weapons, and jet technology was through Nazis scientists, which were recruited by Soviet Union, America, Argentina, England, and Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47
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Re: 500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#6 Postby somethingfunny » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:19 am

Operation Gomorrah


Nice. :grrr:
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Derek Ortt

Re: 500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#7 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:23 am

Ptarmigan wrote:History is not all black and white. Japan was just as bad as the Nazis were in Asia. Rape of Nanking comes to mind and the occupation of Korea. I have read that Nazis did dread being prisoners of Soviet Union. They ready be in American POW camps. The Soviet Union and Nazis were allies before Nazis invaded Soviet Union in 1941. I have read that many Communists did support the Nazis, but later turned against them when they invaded Soviet Union. In fact, Communists had rallies when Hitler and Stalin signed the Stalin-Hitler Pact. After World War II ended, Communists supported Nazis again. Both Nazis and Communists share the same goals, but they have differences.
http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/fa ... hitler.htm

Interestingly, many Nazis were recruited by the Soviet Union, mostly scientists and Gestapos. Rumors have it that the Gestapo chief, Heinrich Mueller worked for the Soviet Union. The AK-47 was developed from a Nazis assault rifle that never went into use. Also, the space program, weapons, and jet technology was through Nazis scientists, which were recruited by Soviet Union, America, Argentina, England, and Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47


The Soviet Union was already at war with Japan when the non-aggression pact was signed with the Reich. They were paper allies
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Re: 500,00 killed by RAF in Dresden? Not quite.

#8 Postby Aslkahuna » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:13 pm

Hostilities between Japan and the USSR were an undeclared war since neither side wanted a full out war. The Soviets had handed the Japanese their behinds on a plate during some skirmishes following Japan's takeover of Manchuria so the Japanese were not at all inclined to get involved full time with the USSR and by December 1941 the Soviets were in no shape to engage the Japanese as well so both sides pretty much sat along the riverbanks watching each other throughout the remainder of the war until the formal declaration of War (in keeping with the agreement at Yalta) by the USSR in August 1944. The Rape of Nanking was perhaps the most egregious atrocity by the Japanese but their occupation of the Philippines and French IndoChina (Viet nam) was especially brutal because of their reactions to the guerilla war against them by such groups as the Hukbalahap (Philippines) and the Viet Minh. Should be mentioned that these guerilla groups themselves were not too kindly disposed towards collaborators or the Japanese and were brutal in their methods (and in the case of the Huks and other Filipino groups quite effective).

Steve
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