The days of the Old West are going FAST!

[azsnowman]

I swear, someone needs to take all these environmental terrorist and lock their silly rumps up NOW these fruit cakes are after the cattlemen and still on the loggers butts........someone NEEDS to put a stop to these nimrods before there ain't no cattle left to eat

Green group files appeal to stop timber salvage




By: Jo Baeza , The Independent 08/21/2003




HEBER/OVERGAARD - The stated objective of the Forest Conservation Council's National Forests Program is "to end logging, grazing, mining, oil and gas leasing, recreational development and other forms of commercial exploitation of our National Forests."
To that end, the Santa Fe-based environmental group filed an appeal in the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco to stop the removal of dead trees from areas along the urban/wildland interface burned in the Rodeo-Chediski Fire.



Dennis

[coriolis]

How could you be against the removal of dead trees? That does not compute.

[Stephanie]

I don't get that either! If it burns again, there's nothing left for the cattle to feed on!

When will people learn and understand the saying "everything in moderation"?

[streetsoldier]

These people have some insane idea about fostering a pristine, untouched version of the natural world...this includes people and domesticated animals, or those used to feed people...

"This is the forest primeval;
The murmuring pines and the hemlocks", etc. ad nauseam.

They'd be happy if there were NO humans on the planet (except for themselves, of course!), because only they truly "understand" Nature (?).

Radical elitism at its apex, folks.

[coriolis]

Dang granola eaters.

[streetsoldier]

A further anomaly comes to mind...

These groups LOVE to point to Native Americans as the embodiment of their beliefs about the care and concern with which they treated their world...yet they conveniently ignore the fact that the Mississippian Culture alone (and possibly the Anoka Culture before them, according to archeaological evidence) denuded most of the east-central U.S. and specifically the Mississippi River basin by clear-cutting and overplanting of cereal crops...which destroyed their way of life within a space of less than 200 years (1100-1300 AD, by best reckoning), without any European influence.

What's more...before the disastrous fires of the past two years, America had five times as much forested area as was present in 1776!

Can you all give me a "DUH"???

[azsnowman]

That's EXACTLY right Bill........the Pre Settlement conditions were 35 trees per acre, NOW.....we're lucky to see LESS than "1000 trees per acre!"

Fire in it's own environment is GOOD......these fires of late, like we're seeing in Oregon are TOTAL disasters, like hurrincanes, more population, more damage. It's a CRYING shame that these fruit loop, granola eaters don't have homes in the path of these fires but NOOOOOOOOOOO, they live in the crystal palaces as Steve (aslkahuana) so eliquently put!

Dennis

[coriolis]

I am opposed to these people and their tactics. But I will add this: Back in the 1800's much of the northeast forest was clear cut. Our forests are now 2nd and 3rd growth. The original forest was primarily a hemlock forest. There are pockets of virgin forest still standing. These trees are huge and majestic. Probably 250+ feet tall and 6 or 8 feet in diameter. Smaller versions of redwoods. The forest now is primarily Oak and maple, up to 100 feet tall and maybe up to 2 feet in diameter, although large hardwood trees are few and far between due to continuing selective harvest. It is a totally different forest now. Of course we can't turn back the clock, and we accept things the way they are. It's also true here that more land is covered by forest than 100 years ago. All the logging back then built much of the country, but the clearcutting surely had severe consequenses like erosion, sedimentation of the rivers, loss of habitat, etc. The logging companies back then pretty much ran roughshod over the forest, but people thought that "it was progress." Plus fortunes were made. Things seem to have recovered, at least to the point that things are stable, wildlife exists, etc.
Since I've lived in this region all my life, I took this to be the natural order, until I found out different.
There are regulations in place to control timbering, and the impacts are much less than back then.
So what do we do? People have to live, and they need stuff. Over time the earth has changed over and over. It's not a museum.

[azsnowman]

I am against clearcut logging BIG TIME for the reasons you mentioned Ed. There is a logging practice now in place, actually, it's been used for well over 60 years now......it's called *Hopscotch* cutting, they will clear cut 40 acres, thin the old growth trees on the next 40 acres......this will continue on for 2 sections (a section of land is 600 acres). This process allows the *biodiversity* in which you refered to......bringing trees back to areas that haven't been seen since the Pre European days (pre settlement conditions that I refer to all the time).

I know a LOT of people hate to see old growth trees cut simply because of their size and beauty, but a tree, like every living thing, has a time and place, old growth trees IMHO *need* to be thinned out to let the healthier, young trees have the space, nutrients to grow.

Living in the west and growing up around loggers all my life, *riding the range* so to speak, has made me very aware of the logging practices of days gone by and yes......there were some bad mistakes made BUT......these senseless lawsuits filed by these *freaks* has done FAR more damage than ANY logging could EVER do!

Dennis

[azskyman]

Nature will do what we do not. So those who claim natural events should dictate the course of a forest need a course that includes a fieldtrip or two to areas they describe....during and after a fire.

All the efforts to preserve and protect are out of control by that stage...and the very pristine conditions they hope to see forever are pristine once again...only this time as vast wasteland.

Forest management is a science designed for the health and vitality of the landscape. These folks and their narrow narrow focus truly can not see "the forest through the trees."

[Stephanie]

I'm glad that we are having a discussion about the clear-cutting practices of days gone by and how they've been eradicated by the various pieces of legislation.

I think that alot of people are very pro-environment and when they hear anything that may suggest going back to those days, they get alittle sensitive. Education is a big factor in promoting understanding as to why it is important to have "thinning" projects. I've learned that all from you Dennis. Before, I would've thought that term was another way for a company to weasel it's way into the forests and eventually begin the process of clear-cutting all for profit.

Actually Bill, sometimes I look at mankind as being the scourge of the earth and it's ultimate downfall. It's a heck of a thought I know, but we do find many ways to screw things up all in the name of "progress" and of course, the mighty $$$$$.

[streetsoldier]

So, I'm one of the "scourges of the Earth"? I LIKE that! Thanks for the title!

BTW, about 35 miles SE of here, there is a virgin forest preserve...a small one...along the Mississippi near Dorena Ferry, which is primarily oak trees and some "wild" primitive cotton, left exactly as it stood before the settlement of New Madrid. Been there, awesome!

[Stephanie]

So, I'm one of the "scourges of the Earth"? I LIKE that! Thanks for the title!

I'm glad that you have a sense of humor!

It was a momentary period of darkness that emminated from my fingers to the keyboard. No offense everyone!

[streetsoldier]

That's OK, Stephanie...

"The darkness must flow
Down the river of life's dreaming
Flow, Morpheus, slow,
Let the sun and light come streaming
Into my life...
Into my life!

"There's a light
(Over at the Frankenstein place)
There's a light
(Burning in the fireplace)
There's a light, a light...
In the darkness
Of everybody's life!" -The Rocky Horror Picture Show

[Stephanie]

Good movie Bill!

[streetsoldier]

Did I mention that coppertop brought me a present from NJ...a still-in-the-box 15th Anniversary (1990) VHS tape of The Rocky Horror Picture Show?

And no forests were cut, or animals injured in the making and distribution, too!

[Stephanie]

How thoughtful! You have a pretty neat son there Bill!

[streetsoldier]

Well, HE thinks so... (...and so do I, but don't tell him that...he might get a "complex"!)

[Stephanie]