One nation, "Under God!"

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azsnowman
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One nation, "Under God!"

#1 Postby azsnowman » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:18 pm

I can't BELIEVE what this world is coming to :grr: The 9th Circ. Court Of Appeals UPHELD taking out *One Nation, Under God* from the pledge of Aligance. I'm tellin' ya, ONE of these days, God's gonna say, "That's enough, you don't believe in me, just watch THIS!" How sad, I know our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves at this moment, scratching their heads and asking, "Why did we risk our lifes for, for THIS kinda BS to happen?"

Dennis :grr:
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firefighter16

#2 Postby firefighter16 » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:24 pm

I'm not a religous man but I agree that-that is just wrong. :x
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#3 Postby southerngale » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:29 pm

I can't believe it either! It is inexcusable.
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#4 Postby mf_dolphin » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:43 pm

The 9th Circuit of Appeals (California) is one of the most Liberal in the country and covers the states of Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon and Washington. The next step for this case will be the US Supreme Court. As I understand the ruling it applies to having children reciting the pledge in school.

Maybe we can give California back to Mexico.....
Last edited by mf_dolphin on Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#5 Postby streetsoldier » Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:45 pm

Thomas Jefferson wants a word with you all...

"I fear for my Country because God is just, and His Wrath cannot be constrained forever."

So much for the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
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#6 Postby JQ Public » Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:47 pm

People can say or do what they want. They can't make people say it nor can they make people not say it. Kinda funny predicament if i do say so myself
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#7 Postby streetsoldier » Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:57 pm

JQ Public, Dr. Benjamin Franklin wants a word with you, Sir...

"Freedom is not license to do what one wants, but the liberty to do what one ought." To be about your business, taking care of family, personal commerce, whatever, free from the restrictions of arbitrary Governmental force or coercion...freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it, Sir.

And it was understood, even as late as the turn of the last century, that "Our government, our very instituitions, clearly presuppose the existence of a Supreme Being" (Oliver Wendell Holmes).

Dr. Franklin has further enlightenment for you; "This constitutional Republic was intended for a just and moral people; it will not do for any other."
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#8 Postby JQ Public » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:01 pm

Ok Ok if you want me to say it even though i don't believe in God then fine i will. But I'm not leaving. I am just and moral though.
Last edited by JQ Public on Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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M2

#9 Postby M2 » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:04 pm

Amen Bill/Dennis. The founding precepts of our country, the foundation of liberty and justice - are being distorted - and those that push this belief are trying to break apart the center, the root of America itself. Very dangerous ground here.
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The Ninth Circuit

#10 Postby Aslkahuna » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:08 pm

Court also has the uneviable record of having the highest percentage of it's rulings overturned by the SC than any other Circuit Court-it's also the one the enviro wackos run to to get their weird rulings that drive us Westerners crazy.

Steve
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wannabehippie

#11 Postby wannabehippie » Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:06 am

i asked my parents about this (they went to high school in the 30's and 40's) back then the words under G-d were not a part of the pledge of allegance (sp). i believe it was not until the 50's that it was a part of the pledge.

that being said i think that if someone because of their religion or lack of belief in G-d should not be required to say the pledge. at the same time i do not feel that the words "under G-d" in the pledge violates the amendment to the constiution regarding the seperation of church and state. if they stand and remain quiet during the pledge, that would be fine by me.

peace
david
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#12 Postby streetsoldier » Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:53 am

There IS no amendment to the Constitution that precludes public worship, whether in schools, churches or the halls of Congress...this is a commonly-held misconstruction, and there's the truth of the matter.

The amendment clearly states that Congress shall have no authority to establish a state church (such as those then prevalent in Europe), nor may it "prohibit the free exercise (of faith, whatever way a person wishes according to the dictates of his conscience) thereof".

As to "separation of church and state"; this was taken from a letter by then-President Thomas Jefferson to a group of Baptist ministers, who feared that Maryland (largely Catholic at the time) might declare Roman Catholicism a "state religion", and they would perforce have to move elsewhere. Jefferson wrote this in order to assert that under NO circumstances may a State, or the Federal Government, interfere with anyone's beliefs, and are in essence bound to protect the people and their churches/synagogues/etc. FROM government intrusion...again, freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM it.

Therefore, banning school prayer, or the posting of the Ten Commandments, or Nativity scenes on public grounds, etc., is what is "unconstitutional", NOT the other way around.

Reexamine the wording, david (and anyone else who's interested); it is plainly there.
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M2

#13 Postby M2 » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:06 am

Yes - "protect and preserve" not 'ban and reject.'
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Re: The Ninth Circuit

#14 Postby Arizwx » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:09 am

Aslkahuna wrote:Court also has the uneviable record of having the highest percentage of it's rulings overturned by the SC than any other Circuit Court-it's also the one the enviro wackos run to to get their weird rulings that drive us Westerners crazy.

Steve

As you know,Kahuna,
I have taken to task,personally,the 9th Circuit in San Francisco.Before we moved to AZ from the Bay Area,we had in 1990-1,a School District Referendum with regard to displaying the American Flag in each classroom.
At the time,my oldest son was just starting Kinder/First Grade,as the 9th Circuit also pandered a referendum to ex/include grade/by age/BirthMONTH.His,in October,fell on the outer set of criterium.The Quasi Socialists at School Dist Central/Sacto had made up a story that class sizes were too large for the students.In actuality,it was a scripted inclusion in collective bargaining to avoid a Strike in the Oakland and San Francisco School Dist. Therefore,the court was defacto,in collusion with the School Dist Boards,the Unions and the Politicus de Sacramento..a big no -no.I along with thousands of other parents caught it along with others and a petition nixed it.
The Flag issue was different.It was based on the new Great Society of Berkeley Teacher's Think Tanks,the Children of 'Color',or 'New Young Citizens' may be OFFENDED by thier NEW Home's Flag!I was outraged.It was unfathomed by other parents,they had been blindsided by the new-age Polictical Correctness Rage.PC came,BTW straight from the Manifestos of Chairman Mao.It is titled,if my memory serves me,Harmonious Societal Behaviour by Politically Instituded Correct Terminology and Reference.It is tightly buried in the Original Manifesto,and is not understood well to this day.
In the '60s,'Eutopians',or wannbe hippies, from the States,Britian and Canada were looking for a 'purpose',a manifesto that they could not write for themselves,as they had no credibilty.They adopted and hacked the Maoist therum and adopted it as thier own,inclusding civil dissent and a rapid and profound change vs the evils of Capitolism.The same Capitolism,that allowed these rich young ppl to attend Universities like Wisc/Madison,Michigan,Stanford and the People's Republic of Berzerkley,my youngest son's place of birth.
These ppl became employed eventually,some wealthy and promoted a left wing agenda.Can you spell Hillary Clinton?
These ppl came into Politics on the heels of Jerry Brown(ex Gov Ca aka Gov Med-Fly) and promoted left wing Judges to the SF Circuit,which controls a large area of the West...which is considered the home of Enviro Pristeenism.
Lost Angelenos,familair with Sacto Politics argued vigorously for Colorado River Water as did Lost Wages,NV. It is still argued to this day.
The very Condo/Apt complex that I live in was built in 1997.It is located in an affluent area,next to a riparian area.When it was framed,it burned to the ground.The cause is not known,however after the terrible Oro Valley fires of 2000 where Million Dollar homes under construction,just 1 mile from here, were burned. An Enviro Group was inferred.The 9th Circuit was involved in a back dated repeal of building permits just before trial.They had been,'misplaced' apparently.
At the same time,we were trying to get a badly needed Middle School and High School built to handle the explosion of growth in the NW area of Metro Tucson.All of my sons eventually attended the Middle School after several delays of permits within a supposed endangered 'Ferrigenous Pygmy Owl' habitat,and the High School was delayed for 2.7 yrs at a cost of 3Million extra dollars.My oldest son was one of the first students to attend IronWood Ridge(aka Pygmy Owl Hi!).It is a beautiful school and does infact fit the riparian area nicely.When a Mascot was to be chosen for the new school,overwhelmingly,it was the Pygmy Owl.Unfortuantely the Amphitheater School Dist nor the 9th Circuit or Kiernan Sucling were amused.It is now the 'NightHawks'.
It seems my son and I have been at odds in the shadow of the 9th Circuit for quite sometime.I taught him to stand for what is right and to challenge peacefully an idea that has merit,but is misguided.
BTW,the Flag back in '91?A New- to- America,Vietnamese Family from Vallejo,CA sued and won....to RESTORE Old Glory to the Classrooms!Touche!
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wannabehippie

#15 Postby wannabehippie » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:20 am

(posted so as to be refered to easily)
snip <Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. >

i believe this means that their could be prayer in schools, but not school prayer. what i mean is if students on their own wanted to have a prayers session the probably could. but the school itself could not organize or lead the prayers. for if they did it would in effect establish a state religion.

as for the 10 commandments i have aproblem with the posting of them because they vary a bit from religion to religion. and posting one or another would once again in effect be establishing a state religion. and what of the nonwestern religion? just as an example the hebrew ones read as follows
1. I am the Lord your God...
2. No other gods, including images...
3. Don't take God's name in vain...
4. Shabbat
5. Honoring parents
6. No adultery
7. No murder
8. Usually rendered Don't Steal
9. No false witness
10. Don't covet.

while the catholic version reads as follows
I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

Honor thy Father and thy Mother

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.

while it may not seem like much there is a difference.
that is why i would not want the ten commandments posted in the classroom.


peace
david
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Interesting Point

#16 Postby Arizwx » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:41 am

David,
By the way,you may call me D.J. if you wish.
I am a Cradle Catholic,and your research ver betum is correct.However,your premise or conclusion may infact be incorrect.
For this simple reason.This Nation was founded by Protestants,quasi Anti-Catholics.The root word,of course per King Henry VIII,'Protest'ing the Vaticans' refusals to consider his divorce legal without defacto excommunicating him.He fashioned the 'Church of England',Anglican.
Protestants came to our shores under the guises of Puritans,etc.,that had been Religiously persecuted.
Our Nation's Constitution was fashioned on Protestant Values,not Catholic albeit Thomas Jefferson argued a more Agnostic viewpoint he respected the population at large and the well being of a new society built on a Moral Code of Ethics with a Guide..known as the Christian/Protestant Testament.
Hence.'Divinely Inspired' is this 'One Nation,Under God..(not G-d,BTW),Indivisible,with Liberty and Justice for all.
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#17 Postby streetsoldier » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:47 am

Yes, david, but consider this...if everyone adhered to most of the principles thus embodied (saving those specifically mentioning Shabbat, God), this would be a MUCH better world in which to live, n'est pas?

Besides, this IS a seminal pronouncement of the Judeo-Christian beliefs upon which we (in princliple, if not practice) stand, is it not? Being that, I believe that it should be included, posted, and disseminated as a matter of shared heritage, if nothing else. And, Arizwx, Jewish people are forbidden to speak or write the Name of God; even though david is not a "practicing" believer, he still retains that symbolic gesture, and understandably so.

Pandering to the "Balkanization" of American thought carries no rational or substantive benefit save to those who stand to gain something from it...i.e., political power and their further empowerment through convincing people that they are "oppressed" by such displays. I need name no one...we are all aware of the people who would, and do, gain from such "divide-and-conquer" tactics.
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StreetSoldier

#18 Postby Arizwx » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:58 am

I am aware that Practising Orthodox Jews adhere to such Hebreic dogmatic law.However,I was not referencing his personal dispostion,nor insulting his conscripted belief system,which at this time,is frankly,unclear.
That aside,I was referencing a written document,the Constitution,in which case,as he is presumeably an American Citizen,has the option of reguritation of written historical documen with correct text and context inclusive to wit. ie:It is written,not 'One Nation under G-d',rather 'One Nation under God'.
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#19 Postby streetsoldier » Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:02 am

Reading you "5 X 5", Commander... :wink:
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Hehehe

#20 Postby Arizwx » Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:16 am

At ease Soldier,and Welcome Aboard,landlubber!
Great to see you back Ye olde Foe and Friend!
I have been up for the better part of two days,working out some final phase plans,and my move back to 'Baghdad-By-The-Bay'(aka San Francisco).This is the dimmest Moon of the lunar phase for sometime,and with the El Nino Rains,it is quite appropriate to pull up a chair with a Glass of Chard and a Cuban to burn the Midnight Oils with Debates as titillating as these.I am also listening to a Native American produced CD,of Redwood and Cedar Flute Music and recordings of the Monsoon Trstrms in the White Mtns of Arizona,as they happened during the outdoor recordings.How Ma nature knew to 'appear'just then...I shall never Know!It is titled 'Quemado Rain' by the 'Laughing Crow Flutes' .Quemado is an ancient Native American 'Cathedral' in a Valley in NW New Mexico East of the White Mtns of AZ. and SW of the Sangre de Cristo Mtns(Taos) of N/C New Mexico.It is known as 'Medicine Canyon'.
Most enjoyable!Kudos fellow BB Protestants on this early Sunday Morn..plz continue...
38F/Mist FG/Lt Ra/Vis <2nm/Rh 93%/Wind:Slack to L/V/baro 29.97-S-
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