Israel thread #2

[Derek Ortt]

Since the first one reached 25 pages... time to start a new one


As for how far I take the brutality of war, IMO, all should be legal in war except for rape. What the Soviets did at the end of the second WW was far over the line and had ZERO military significance. An argument for killing civilians can be made as they do have a part in the wartime economy; thus, they are not truly innocent


*Edit by southerngale

Link to the first thread: http://www.storm2k.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=86773

[stormtruth]

Since the first one reached 25 pages... time to start a new one


As for how far I take the brutality of war, IMO, all should be legal in war except for rape. What the Soviets did at the end of the second WW was far over the line and had ZERO military significance. An argument for killing civilians can be made as they do have a part in the wartime economy; thus, they are not truly innocent

Are you arguing that Americans and Canadians stuck in Lebanon are not innocent -- that they are now part of Hezbollah? Do you disagree with the US and Canada's call for restraint?

[Derek Ortt]

I fully disagree with the calls for restraint

I cannot udnerstand why the Americans would go back there, knowing how volitale it is. It is just like me living in South Miami, and riding out hurricanes on the Rickenbacker Causeway... its a significant rik and must be prepared to face the consequences

[southerngale]

I apologize to anyone who may have been typing a reply in the other thread, but I had to lock it since it reached (and passed) 25 pages. I'm going to repeat what I said just before I locked it:


Some people don't seem to understand the situation as well as others, at least that's how I see it. Any compassion whatsoever for Hezbollah is beyond me! Anyway, let's not turn this thread into one big argument - it is/was quite informative....I don't like where it's headed though.

[feederband]

I just don't understand ....Hezbollah attacked and killed and kidnapped Israel's soldiers...Hezbollah said they done this...Hezbollah refuses to give back the soldiers and continues to launch rockets on Israel's civilian population...Israel's only way now is to destroy Hezbollah all together..And Hammas for that matter...These are terrorist living and operating in country's that let them...Hezbollah are all over Lebanon not just the borders ...Israel is hitting their command and control in Beirut..Just like in any war Innocent civilian will die..

[SouthFloridawx]

This situation is really going downhil. I think it's escalating even more than it was before.

http://www.cnn.com/

[abajan]

Of course in war civilians are killed, no big deal.

My thoughts exactly, stormtruth. This has got to be one of the most heartless statements I've seen on S2K.

Some of us seem to think that once Israel did it, (whatever it is) it's okay. There's a common belief that Israel is Holy and therefore friendly towards Christians. Not necessarily. Just today at church, our Rector (I'm an Anglican) stated that according to a proposed law in Israel, one could find himself in prison for trying to convert Israelis to Christianity. But after doing a bit of searching on the 'Net, it seems that even having a copy of the New Testament in one's possesion may become grounds for arrest.

Israel may not be as "democratic" as we have been lead to believe:

http://www.al-bushra.org/jerus/newtestament.htm
http://www.al-bushra.org/latpatra/christmos.htm

I know the above links may be biased but it's certainly not the first time I've heard these sorts of views expressed.

IMO, this conflict is far more complicated than "Israel is just defending herself".

[feederband]

IMO, this conflict is far more complicated than "Israel is just defending herself".

I believe you are right..They are tired of living in fear of terrorist launching Rockets into their cities...They do not want to go back to the way it was...They want Hezbollah and Hammas destroyed... Or at least away from their borders.. And so would I if I lived there...

[nholley]

[/quote]I believe you are right..They are tired of living in fear of terrorist launching Rockets into their cities...They do not want to go back to the way it was...They want Hezbollah and Hammas destroyed... Or at least away from their borders.. And so would I if I lived there[/quote]

I think in order for us to understand it all we must look into the minds of the so called terrorists. To us they are terrorists, but they believe they are soldiers fighting a holy war. We cannot enforce our thinking on them and herein lies the problem. It is the reason there will never be peace. We and to an extent the Israeli's think one way and justify our actions under the banner of self defence, they justify their actions as fighting a holy war. Both sides think they are right and we cannot force our way of thinking onto them. Israle and Palastine both believe they have a right to the holy land...neither will give up that right and there will always be fighting there.

[nystate]

An argument for killing civilians can be made as they do have a part in the wartime economy; thus, they are not truly innocent

I guess that makes those working in the WTC on 9/11 legitimate targets in your mind...?

[Derek Ortt]

9/11, if not committed by Saddam and Iraq, was unprovoked aggression; thus, a war crime.

If committed Iraq was behind it, it was still a war crime as it was carried out by personnel not wearing an appropriate uniform

9/11 was a war crime. What Israel is doing is not

[NBCintern]

9/11, if not committed by Saddam and Iraq, was unprovoked aggression; thus, a war crime.

If committed Iraq was behind it, it was still a war crime as it was carried out by personnel not wearing an appropriate uniform

9/11 was a war crime. What Israel is doing is not

I know this will probably the most unpopular statement ever made, but I have to respond to Derek's post here. The 9-11 was in the making for a long time. It was created (9-11) by our unflattering for****** ******. Thus, we are fault for it happening. I believe the bombers in the 9-11 where descendants of Saudi, Egyptian, and other middle eastern countries. Why did we not bomb these countries? Isreal is doing it? Why did we go after Afghanistan and Iraq. As far as my readings from 9-11 go no hijackers came frome these countries.

[southerngale]

9/11, if not committed by Saddam and Iraq, was unprovoked aggression; thus, a war crime.

If committed Iraq was behind it, it was still a war crime as it was carried out by personnel not wearing an appropriate uniform

9/11 was a war crime. What Israel is doing is not

I know this will probably the most unpopular statement ever made, but I have to respond to Derek's post here. The 9-11 was in the making for a long time. It was created (9-11) by our unflattering foreign policy. Thus, we are fault for it happening. I believe the bombers in the 9-11 where descendants of Saudi, Egyptian, and other middle eastern countries. Why did we not bomb these countries? Isreal is doing it? Why did we go after Afghanistan and Iraq. As far as my readings from 9-11 go no hijackers came frome these countries.

Unpopular is an understatement. On more than one occasion, you certainly seem to sympathize with terrorists. I find this and your comments appalling and will leave it at that so I don't have to ban myself.

And keep politics out of it...you're treading on thin ice here. This is not even a thread about 9/11. May I suggest a break from here?

[NBCintern]

9/11, if not committed by Saddam and Iraq, was unprovoked aggression; thus, a war crime.

If committed Iraq was behind it, it was still a war crime as it was carried out by personnel not wearing an appropriate uniform

9/11 was a war crime. What Israel is doing is not

I know this will probably the most unpopular statement ever made, but I have to respond to Derek's post here. The 9-11 was in the making for a long time. It was created (9-11) by our unflattering foreign policy. Thus, we are fault for it happening. I believe the bombers in the 9-11 where descendants of Saudi, Egyptian, and other middle eastern countries. Why did we not bomb these countries? Isreal is doing it? Why did we go after Afghanistan and Iraq. As far as my readings from 9-11 go no hijackers came frome these countries.

Unpopular is an understatement. On more than one occasion, you certainly seem to sympathize with terrorists. I find this and your comments appalling and will leave it at that so I don't have to ban myself.

I see terrorism as activitism. I sympathize for their plight (for the most part), but I do not condone their violence. You can bring your message though less violent means. Violence doesn nothing but hurt innocent people. I AGREE that terrorism must be absolved, which answer I do not have.

[nholley]

[/quote]

Unpopular is an understatement. On more than one occasion, you certainly seem to sympathize with terrorists. I find this and your comments appalling and will leave it at that so I don't have to ban myself.

And keep politics out of it...you're treading on thin ice here. This is not even a thread about 9/11. May I suggest a break from here?[/quote]

This was my point, to YOU they are terrorists in THEIR minds they are soldiers.

[Audrey2Katrina]

I know this will probably the most unpopular statement ever made, but I have to respond to Derek's post here. The 9-11 was in the making for a long time. It was created (9-11) by our unflattering foreign policy. Thus, we are fault for it happening. I believe the bombers in the 9-11 where descendants of Saudi, Egyptian, and other middle eastern countries. Why did we not bomb these countries? Isreal is doing it? Why did we go after Afghanistan and Iraq. As far as my readings from 9-11 go no hijackers came frome these countries.

I am going to give my VERY best effort at restraint, in responding to what unequivocally is THE most offensive and inflammatory post I've ever seen on THIS website. This is not because one is not entitled to their own opinions. however ignorant they may be; but because it is sooooo close to saying the same thing that the nutcase Ward Churchill said, when he called the victims of 9/11 "Little Eichmanns"... To say "WE are [at] fault" for 9/11 is positively either the most ill-informed or certainly inflammatory thing I've had to endure on these pages, and if it remains here, I give this thread a life-expectancy till the next mod checks in. This is SOOO insulting!!!

Where the "bombers" of 9/11 came from is actually NOT the point about where and why we responded the way we do. IF you were an "informed" intern, you'd KNOW THAT. The operation ALL of these cretins belonged to, in case you haven't heard.. was Al-Qaeda... and it's founder --head honcho, (Yes another Saudi--incidentally KICKED OUT of that country) was this guy named Usama Bin Laden... and WHAT government do you suppose was where his "base" (which is what al-qaeda means) of operations was located? Here's a hint: It wasn't Saudi Arabia, nor was it Egypt... IT WAS AFGHANISTAN... The government of the radical Taliban was giving him complete sanctuary, AND aid at the time... and BEFORE there ever was any action taken against even those clowns, we DID give them an ultimatum to hand over Bin Laden who WAS the chief perp of 9/11, ... they refused... and paid the just price. My God! Please, if you're going to make such inflammatory comments as that... kindly get your facts straight, or at the very least don't be so guilty of "shading" the truth.

In my opinion, if it was subtly hidden before, it no longer is--clearly your sentiments are obvious--I'll say no more and leave it to the readers to discern on their own--it's THAT obvious.

A2K

[Audrey2Katrina]

Apologies, Kelly, I had written that, and was editing it before posting, and/or before seeing your response... Indeed it isn't about 9/11, but it IS about fighting terrorism... and if I get a wrist slap for calling a spade a spade... so be it; but I was that revulsed by the previous post. Henceforth I will refrain from such passion; but I taught a child who lost his father in 9/11, and this didn't sit well with me at all.

A2K

[george_r_1961]

9/11, if not committed by Saddam and Iraq, was unprovoked aggression; thus, a war crime.

If committed Iraq was behind it, it was still a war crime as it was carried out by personnel not wearing an appropriate uniform

9/11 was a war crime. What Israel is doing is not

I know this will probably the most unpopular statement ever made, but I have to respond to Derek's post here. The 9-11 was in the making for a long time. It was created (9-11) by our unflattering foreign policy. Thus, we are fault for it happening. I believe the bombers in the 9-11 where descendants of Saudi, Egyptian, and other middle eastern countries. Why did we not bomb these countries? Isreal is doing it? Why did we go after Afghanistan and Iraq. As far as my readings from 9-11 go no hijackers came frome these countries.

Unpopular is an understatement. On more than one occasion, you certainly seem to sympathize with terrorists. I find this and your comments appalling and will leave it at that so I don't have to ban myself.

I see terrorism as activitism. I sympathize for their plight (for the most part), but I do not condone their violence. You can bring your message though less violent means. Violence doesn nothing but hurt innocent people. I AGREE that terrorism must be absolved, which answer I do not have.

Terrorism is terrorism.. PERIOD I will not EVER sympathize with any organization that kills INNOCENT people for their so called "cause"..no matter what it is!

[SouthFloridawx]

CAN WE KEEP THIS TO THE TOPIC AT HAND SO THE FREAKING THREAD DOESN'T GET LOCKED. TAKE YOUR POLITICS AND PLACE THEN ON A POLITICAL BOARD PLEASE. SOME OF US WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS THREAD CONTINUE SO WE CAN DISCUSS WHAT IS GOING ON IN ISREAL AND LEBANON!!!!!!!!!

[kevin]

From the Previous Thread

You completely missed Kevin's point... he was kind'a sort'a supporting a viewpoint similar; but thankfully not entirely, similar to yours. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm reading it wrong.

My response to Kevin would be this... so when an entire state, rendered little more than a puppet for a terrorist organization, refuses to do what is necessary to reign those terrorists in, the "state" of Israel is bound to play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules, while the terrorist-run state is allowed all the dirty tricks? Frankly, while you might well answer yes to that--I would say no, and even HELL no. Hezbollah needs to be squashed. They've instigated this, they're perpetuating it, and they need to get one major ***-kicking.

A2K

Israel is acting in self defense against an enemy hizbollah which is attacking from uncontrolled territory to the north of her. The responsibility of any state extends as far as the territory claimed. Lebanon is indirectly responsible then for what happened, and has seen territory struck as the result. This seems altogether justifiable to me.

What I was commenting in the other thread about was two points.

1. It sucks that Lebanon which is weak, has her citizens suffering as a result of her weakness. I think that the Lebanese get used as a tool by their Syrian and Iranian puppetmasters. So I'm not happy that Lebanese are dying, at least those not involved in attacking Israel.

2. Israel is allowed to indirectly kill civilians. Its unfortunate that they're dying, but simply a part of warfare. If Israel was carpetbombing Lebanese population centers it would be breaching international treaty and international norms. What they are doing now is in my mind legal and just.

Its just if there is a slippery slope in the world its doing what your enemy does. For instance terrorists in Iraq behead US captives, and we do not behead our detainies. This is because our cause and agenda in the world is removing people who torture and murder.