Socialized Medicare

Chat about anything and everything... (well almost anything) Whether it be the front porch or the pot belly stove or news of interest or a topic of your liking, this is the place to post it.

Moderator: S2k Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
azsnowman
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8591
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:56 pm
Location: Pinetop Arizona. Elevation 7102' (54 miles west of NM border)

Socialized Medicare

#1 Postby azsnowman » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:29 pm

After this round of pneunomia I've got and having to shell out almost 200$ for the meds I needed got me thinking.......why doesn't the U.S. have a socialized medicare program like most countrys in Europe do??? I for one would be MORE than happy to pay a flat tax to fund this program.....I mean after leaving the pharmacy this morning, I saw an elderly gentleman pick up his meds for the month, his cost out of pocket, over 300$ :grr: you could tell this gentleman wasn't well off by any means, I'm sure he's living on a fixed income and he has to make a choice between eating, paying bills etc OR take his meds :grr: while all the while the da** pharmacutical companies are raking in BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars per year :grr: I watched a program not too long ago on the drug companies, they hold off on letting a drug go generic to keep the profits abnormally inflated........ONE OF THESE days these ppl are going to have to answer for their actions and I'm afraid the outcome will NOT be to their liking!

Dennis
0 likes   

User avatar
Lindaloo
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 22658
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pascagoula, MS

#2 Postby Lindaloo » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:36 pm

i know dennis. something needs to be done quickly. children suffer the same fate when they need medication and the moms are buying that instead of food.

there was an elderly gentleman in front of me at wal-mart too and he had a 300 dollar medicine bill. the look on his face just made my heart swell. i wanted to cry for him, then i wanted to scream at someone.

and i agree those drug companies are going to answer to this one day.
0 likes   

User avatar
azsnowman
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8591
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:56 pm
Location: Pinetop Arizona. Elevation 7102' (54 miles west of NM border)

#3 Postby azsnowman » Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:46 pm

That's what I love about my sawbones, he's very liberal in giving out samples to anyone, anytime......I've had to go back to his office for samples of stuff that I refuse to pay the pharmacy for......God, it BURNS me up to no end, not to mention the ever rising cost of medical care AND the constant price increases on our health insurance, most of the blame for this rise goes on those sue happy ppl and their slime bag attorneys......SHUT UP DENNIS "LOL!"

Dennis
0 likes   

User avatar
mf_dolphin
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 17758
Age: 68
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:05 pm
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Contact:

#4 Postby mf_dolphin » Thu Aug 07, 2003 6:42 am

The profiteering in our healthcare system is a blight and an embarassment for this country. Mt mother used to say there was going to be a special place in Hell for Doctors and Lawyers.It just burns me that in one of the richest countries in the world that we have a large group of people that can't afford health care! We should be ashamed!!

I was stationed in England for 2 years and had a chance to see socialized medicine at work. I had a friend who put his hand through a window (drunk). SInce our base only had a Monday-Friday clinic, we had to take him to the local British emergency room. I had to fill out a 3x5 size card with his basic information and 5 minutes later he was being stiched up by a Doctor. No cost! Friendly service! The British carry a heavy tax load but at least they have good quality medical care!

Something has to be done in this country! Our system is broken!
0 likes   

User avatar
azsnowman
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8591
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:56 pm
Location: Pinetop Arizona. Elevation 7102' (54 miles west of NM border)

#5 Postby azsnowman » Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:23 am

I fully agree Marshall....that's the plan I was talking about. I too, got to see this program in practice when I was in Paris France back in 1978.....GREAT PLAN! Like I said, I would be more than happy to pay a health care tax....hell, it's GOTTA be cheaper than my health insurance premiums I swear!

Dennis
0 likes   

rainstorm

#6 Postby rainstorm » Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:04 am

can you give examples of profiteering? people in canada are coming here now to get drugs. the elderly are the richest segment of the population. why not double taxes on everyone? as far as proiteering goes, drug companies need profits to invest in new drugs. with govt control comes price controls. if the drug companies cant make money, kiss away the development of new drugs. because of socialism, the euro economies have been stagnant for some time or declining. europe also has a declining birth rate.
0 likes   

rainstorm

this is one of my fav quotes

#7 Postby rainstorm » Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:12 am

Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it.
-- Thomas Sowell
0 likes   

User avatar
Stephanie
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23843
Age: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:53 am
Location: Glassboro, NJ

#8 Postby Stephanie » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:06 am

rainstorm wrote:can you give examples of profiteering? people in canada are coming here now to get drugs. the elderly are the richest segment of the population. why not double taxes on everyone? as far as proiteering goes, drug companies need profits to invest in new drugs. with govt control comes price controls. if the drug companies cant make money, kiss away the development of new drugs. because of socialism, the euro economies have been stagnant for some time or declining. europe also has a declining birth rate.


Really? We have advertisements of CANADIAN websites offering prescription drugs at much lower prices. The FDA has warned that if people are allowed to purchase prescription drugs from out of the country, they can't guarantee there safety and are thus fully against people having access to it.

Our capitalist economy has been declining as well.

I believe that EVERYONE has the right to seek and receive medical treatment - not just those that can afford it.
0 likes   

User avatar
mf_dolphin
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 17758
Age: 68
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:05 pm
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Contact:

#9 Postby mf_dolphin » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:34 am

rainstorm wrote:can you give examples of profiteering? people in canada are coming here now to get drugs. the elderly are the richest segment of the population. why not double taxes on everyone? as far as proiteering goes, drug companies need profits to invest in new drugs. with govt control comes price controls. if the drug companies cant make money, kiss away the development of new drugs. because of socialism, the euro economies have been stagnant for some time or declining. europe also has a declining birth rate.


I don't know where your information comes on Canadiens coming here for medicines. I would be real interested in your source. Every report I can find is about the opposite. The drug companies are selling at much higher prices in the good old US than they are for the same medication in other countries. When a hospital can charge $5.00 for a plain aspirin then that's gouging the public. It happens either through our out of pocket expenses or our insurance! Either way we pay!!! No one denies the drug companies the right to make money but there needs to be some reason to the amount of profit that they can bleed us out of! It is not just the drug companies that I have an issue with. Everyone in the Healthcare System is sucking their share of blood. This includes the insurance companies, equipement providers, lawyers and yes care givers. It has to stop somewhere.

As far as your socialism arguement, we are talking about socialized medicine not a socialist government in general. If it takes price controls and yes profit controls to get our system in check then so be it! While we don't have a great history with Government controlling industry, it doesn't mean it can't be done. Our healthcare system is running amok right now and more and more people are placed in a situation where they can't afford healthcare at all! Guess who pays in the long run? Each and everyone of us. Sooner or later we'll have to fix the system....I vote sooner!!!! :-) JMHO
0 likes   

User avatar
Stephanie
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 23843
Age: 63
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:53 am
Location: Glassboro, NJ

#10 Postby Stephanie » Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:47 pm

I was thinking about this earlier, but since the government pretty much subsidizes and controls education, isn't that the same thing as socialism or socializing medication and health insurance in general? To me, yes we all need an education to be productive in life, but where would we be if we couldn't get health care? I can't see how that is so different or even alittle more important.
0 likes   

rainstorm

washington post

#11 Postby rainstorm » Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:59 pm

By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, June 4, 2003; Page A27


Just about every American politician, regardless of party, favors adding a prescription drug benefit to Medicare. It's a bad idea. The Senate will soon begin considering the latest proposals. We can only hope that bickering among politicians and interest groups -- retiree lobbies, drug companies, health insurers -- creates a deadlock. A Medicare drug benefit would simply worsen the country's central budget problem: the huge retirement costs of the baby-boom generation.



The typical member of Congress, now an older baby boomer, ought to wonder: What am I doing to my children (and their children)? From 2010 to 2030, the over-65 population is projected to rise by about 30 million; meanwhile, the working-age population (20-64) will increase by only 10 million. The pressures on younger families to pay for Social Security and Medicare benefits must rise. Piling new benefits atop the old -- today drugs, tomorrow nursing-home care and then who knows what -- compounds the pressures.

We cannot know the full consequences of these larger burdens. But the possibilities must include slower economic growth and smaller families -- because the economy becomes less dynamic and because young couples feel they can't afford children. The Congressional Budget Office projects that the costs of today's Social Security and Medicare benefits will nearly double by 2030 -- from 6.4 percent of national income (gross domestic product) to 11.1 percent.

Put differently, the increase equals 25 percent of today's federal budget. It implies a massive transfer from the working-age population that must occur through (a) higher taxes, (b) higher deficits, (c) cuts in other government programs -- or all three. Now, suppose Congress adds a drug benefit. Some will say that the costs aren't high, especially if compared with President Bush's tax cuts. On paper, this is true. Bush has reserved almost $400 billion for a drug benefit over the decade (2004-2013); past proposals suggest that some Democratic plans may double that. Still, both figures are under the cost of Bush's tax cuts, now roughly $2 trillion over the decade.

The trouble is that the costs of a drug benefit are dramatically understated, for three reasons.

First, costs will rise rapidly after baby boomers reach eligibility, but that starts only in 2011. Estimates for the next decade miss these increases. Second, even today's generous proposals cover half or less of the elderly's drug costs, which the CBO estimates at $1.8 trillion over the decade. If Congress enacts a drug benefit, the 41 million Medicare recipients will discover its stinginess and agitate for improvements. Covering all of retirees' drug costs would raise Medicare spending by nearly 50 percent. Finally, better Medicare drug coverage undoubtedly will encourage more drug use.

Nor would reversing the Bush tax cuts easily pay for a drug benefit. Eliminating present budget deficits -- plus providing already promised benefits -- would absorb tax increases. The same money can't be used twice. Of course, Congress could also cut spending sharply. Either way, there's no cheap way out.

Given this sobering arithmetic, the fascinating thing about a drug benefit is its respectability. It's considered the decent thing. No one dislikes grandmas and grandpas. All politicians want to allay retirees' anxiety over "exploding" drug costs. In reality, this "crisis" is exaggerated. Although drug costs are increasing, only 5 percent of Medicare recipients in 2000 had out-of-pocket drug costs exceeding $2,000, according to CBO data. Many retirees have private insurance; and Medicaid (a government insurance program) covers some poor retirees.

The crusade for a drug benefit is mostly a shameless competition for retirees' votes. It's democracy in action, because the elderly are the nation's most powerful voting bloc. In the 2000 election, almost 70 percent of those 65 and over voted; turnout was only slightly lower (64 percent) for the near-elderly (45-64). By contrast, only 35 percent of those 21 to 24 voted. Who cares about them? The elderly vote more, and their lobbies focus single-mindedly on protecting and enhancing Social Security and Medicare benefits.

The perverse paradox is this: Although Social Security and Medicare shape the long-term budget outlook, budget debates largely exclude Social Security and Medicare. Congress should have long ago tempered retirement costs by gradually raising eligibility ages and trimming benefits for wealthier retirees. Congress did slightly increase Social Security's eligibility age in the 1980s; but the subject hasn't been revisited. No one wants to upset retirees -- present or future.

Let it be said: In an ideal world, Congress would enact a Medicare drug benefit. It would be modest, aimed at those with high out-of-pocket costs and calibrated by income. It would be paid for entirely by new premiums on Medicare recipients. This would create pressures to limit costs and concentrate on the neediest. The chances of this happening are about zero. Indeed, neither Republicans nor Democrats propose paying for a new drug benefit with any new tax. It's an apparent freebie.

Nonsense. Only two groups can pay retirement costs: retirees or non-retirees. When Congress created Social Security (1935) and Medicare (1965), the common idea was to protect people against ruin. It was not to subsidize the regular and predictable expenses of retirement -- especially when most people can now anticipate and save for retirement, as was not true then. But the case for a drug benefit quietly presumes that the elderly shouldn't have to pay drug costs. Someone else should pay. Why?

Congress and the president aren't ready to ask that question, as Congress and presidents haven't asked hard questions about retirement costs for decades. Until this political taboo is broken -- a change nowhere in sight -- nothing is better than something.


© 2003 The Washington Post Company
0 likes   

User avatar
mf_dolphin
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 17758
Age: 68
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:05 pm
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Contact:

#12 Postby mf_dolphin » Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:11 pm

That article only addresses a small portion of the issue. The overall costs associated with healthcare are skyrocketing. For those on limited or fixed incomes these increases can be devastating. There are already entirely too many peope that can't afford healthcare. Every year it just gets worse! If some controls were placed on the entire healthcare community then the cost of a drug program would be greatly reduced.
0 likes   

rainstorm

washington times

#13 Postby rainstorm » Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:22 pm

By Stephen Dinan
THE WASHINGTON TIMES



Adding a prescription drug benefit to Medicare will cost many times its estimated $400 billion price tag for the next decade, judging from past growth in health care entitlement programs.
In addition, the drug benefit would burden Medicare with an expected liability of $4.4 trillion over the 75-year period used to map the program's long-term soundness, but without providing any means of covering that cost.
The House is scheduled to vote on its version of the bill today, while the Senate has been considering its bill for two weeks and hopes to finish its version before the end of this week.
Both bills add a prescription drug benefit to Medicare as part of a 10-year, $400 billion overhaul of the program, and Republican leaders in both chambers are fighting to keep conservatives from revolting against the proposals and their long-term costs.
Those who have studied past health care entitlement programs, though, say the costs are almost inevitably higher than predictions, and often are many times higher.
"We can expect the same thing here," said Robert Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, a budget-hawk advocacy group.
Medicare has exceeded its projected costs from the beginning. When the initial program, hospital insurance, was instituted in 1965, the projected cost in 1990 was $9 billion. The actual cost in 1990 was $67 billion — more than seven times the estimate.
Richard Jackson, who studied the issue for the Concord Coalition, presented other examples:
•In 1987, Medicaid's special hospitals subsidy was projected to cost $100 million per year by 1992, but the actual cost by then was $11 billion.
•In 1988, when the Medicare home care program was established, the 1993 projected cost was $4 billion, while the actual cost in 1993 was $10 billion.
•The 1990 budget deal projected finding $43 billion in savings in Medicare over five years, "precisely none of which materialized — or maybe more to the point it did materialize, but other [Medicare] spending grew more rapidly," Mr. Jackson said.
Mr. Jackson said estimating the number of beneficiaries can be just as suspect. When Medicare began to cover kidney dialysis in 1972, the projection for 1995 was 90,000 beneficiaries. By 1994, the number of beneficiaries came to 194,000.
Neil Howe, an adjunct scholar at the National Taxpayers Union who has worked with Mr. Jackson to study the issue, said several factors affect the growth.
Mr. Howe said the easy availability of drugs will create additional demand through an "out of the woodwork" phenomenon in which people who have forgone medication in the past demand it now as a necessity. Also, he said, the program over the long term could create a new force to develop and bring drugs to market.
Robert Moffitt at the Heritage Foundation said the debate reminded him of the 1988 Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act, which received strong support from interest groups and was passed overwhelmingly in Congress, but was repealed just one year later.
The intervening year was noteworthy for the memorable occasion of seniors chasing House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dan Rostenkowski, Illinois Democrat, through the streets of Chicago and beating on his car to complain about the legislation.
"We're looking at a replay of this thing," Mr. Moffitt said.
Democrats have been clear that this year's bill is a foot in the door, and what they don't get passed now they will demand in the future.
"Many of these amendments are ones you'll recognize later," said Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, South Dakota Democrat. "It may be next month, it may be next year, it may be at some point in the future. So the more we can build and make the record, we think, the better our prospects are the next time we offer it."
Democratic leaders' preferred plan would cost $900 billion, and observers say cost increases could come as pieces of their plan pass in future years.
The first expansion target will be the bill's "doughnut hole," where seniors whose drug costs fall in a certain range must pay 100 percent of the costs.
"This one has got cost expansion written all over it because of the doughnut-hole thing," said Mr. Bixby at the Concord Coalition. "Filling in that doughnut hole is going to be the Holy Grail of politicians and seniors' advocates over the next few years."
On top of the growth in prescription drug costs themselves, Congress has not created a designated stream of funding for the program, as it has for Social Security and Medicare through payroll taxes. Therefore, the drug benefit will create an entitlement that Congress must fund through general revenue.
The president's own fiscal year 2004 budget said the prescription drug benefit program that House Republicans proposed last year would add $4.4 trillion over the next 75 years, bringing the total expected liability to $17.9 trillion. Most observers say both the House and Senate bills this year would add at least that much.
Covering the cost of that liability would require a tax increase of about $3,000 a year for the average family, the president's budget says, arguing that the long-term number is even more important than the short-term costs.
"What a proposed reform is estimated to cost over its first five or 10 years is less important than whether it reduces or worsens the unfunded (and unfundable) liabilities of the system," the budget says.
Congressional Republicans, though, say their proposals will reduce the long-term liability through cost savings that would result from introducing free-market competition into the Medicare equation — something that is part of the overhaul.
"What we are putting our faith in is what we've always put our faith in philosophically and in principle, and that is competition keeps the cost of health care down while it raises the quality of health care," said House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, Texas Republican.
Without those reforms, Republicans say, Medicare costs will balloon anyway because of an aging population and growing health care costs.
"The alternative is just horrendous," Mr. DeLay said.
0 likes   

User avatar
mf_dolphin
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 17758
Age: 68
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:05 pm
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Contact:

#14 Postby mf_dolphin » Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:27 pm

Again, this is just a part of the issue.
0 likes   

User avatar
Lindaloo
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 22658
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pascagoula, MS

#15 Postby Lindaloo » Fri Aug 08, 2003 7:22 am

not to mention that this comes from the washington times. :lol:
0 likes   

User avatar
azsnowman
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 8591
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:56 pm
Location: Pinetop Arizona. Elevation 7102' (54 miles west of NM border)

#16 Postby azsnowman » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:00 am

"LOL!" Linda!

Now......I don't quite understand your statement of the elderly being wealthy?? Most seniors I know and believe me, this area is 99.9% seniors, live on a very limited fixed income. Yes......most have a pension along with their social security but have you talked to someone who has to live on SS??? It BARELY pays the bills for heavens sake.

I have to agree with everyone on the issue of Canadians coming to the US for cheaper drugs. I watched a segment on 60 Minutes a few weeks back, Americans are flooding the Canadian border in search of cheaper drugs. Here in Az.....there are special tour buses taking seniors just across the Az/Mexico border to buy their drugs......Michelle and I make a trip to Tucson/Nogales once every 6 months for our *staple drugs* blood pressure, inhalers etc.......even with the drive (500+ miles round trip) lodging, dining etc....we STILL save over 75% of what we would be spending IF we bought the drugs here in town.

Generic vs. Name Brand drugs......why do the drug companies keep a drug with the name brand for 5 years before allowing it to be made into a generic brand??? Can you say *price fixing*? "Grrrrrr....don't get me started!" OK.....look at the antibiotic Cypro.....no generic available, it's the ONLY antibiotic that is effective against Anthrax, have you ever had to pay for a script of Cypro? When I had the surgery on my foot last winter, I had gotten a bad infection as most of you remember, the only anti-b that would work was the Cypro......if I remember correctly, it's OVER 3$ per PILL!!!! Now COME ON.....the maker of Cypro is the ONLY manufacuter and since they have the *corner* on the market, why SHOULD they let it go generic. "One of these days Alice, ONE OF THESE days..........POW, right in the kisser!" "LOL!"

Dennis
0 likes   

User avatar
JCT777
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 6251
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:21 am
Location: Spring Mount, PA
Contact:

#17 Postby JCT777 » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:08 am

While I do agree that costs of healthcare and certain prescription medications is high, I think the following statement is true:

"...competition keeps the cost of health care down while it raises the quality of health care".

I just worry that government intervention will actually do more harm than good in the long run.
0 likes   

User avatar
Lindaloo
Category 5
Category 5
Posts: 22658
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:06 am
Location: Pascagoula, MS

#18 Postby Lindaloo » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:12 am

i recently had to purchase the anti-biotic augmentin. it has pain relief in it, the cost? 100 bucks for 20 pills. my insurance only paid 50%. i can just imagine what the senior citizens are going through having to buy medications every month that they are required to take to live.
0 likes   

User avatar
azskyman
S2K Supporter
S2K Supporter
Posts: 4104
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 7:36 am
Location: Scottsdale Arizona
Contact:

#19 Postby azskyman » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:22 am

Sun City, west of Phoenix, and the area growing around it has been the haven for retirees down here for years. There are growing retirement communities throughout Arizona...in Prescott, Yuma, Phoenix, Green Valley, Tucson, etc..

I am aware the busses make regular trips across the boarder into Mexico for the sole purpose of purchasing medication.

And while there seem to be many retirees with plenty of money, most find medicines and drugs to be very expensive and beyond their means.

Dennis..I do believe reform is necessary but as I watch big government solve problems, I often witness that it can screw up something even more when they try to fix it. It needs to be done right. I suspect that the huge number of votes coming along in us baby boomers will find a way to make some needed things happen.

Meanwhile...the downside of being self-employed is the personal cost of health care.

Steve
0 likes   

User avatar
coriolis
Retired Staff
Retired Staff
Posts: 8314
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 10:58 pm
Location: Muncy, PA

#20 Postby coriolis » Fri Aug 08, 2003 8:34 am

Socialized medicine would create new problems and inequities.

I have 8% of my paycheck deducted for health insurance. I pay a lot more for a family plan than co-workers pay for an individual plan. That seems fair - you get what you pay for.

If we go to socialized medicine, I would likely pay the same as childless people. With the various tax incentives that presently exist , I could actually pay LESS than childless people.

Homeowners who get deductions on their taxes would pay less for health insurance than renters.

People who can put their money into tax shelters would pay less for health insurance than those who don't.

Of course, people who are unemployed would pay less for health insurance thatn people who are employed.

Retirees would pay less than working people.

Seems that there's lots of people who would pay less. Who are the unfortunate people who will pay more? I wouldn't want to be one of them.


As for social security, I say raise the retirement age. Eliminate early retirement. I'll work till I'm 70. How does life expectency now compare to life expectancies back when social security and medicare were instituted. Back then, a lot of people probably died before even reaching retirement. Wasn't it set up as a safety net for older people who couldn't work? Back then, there was no concept of retirement as we know it now. Now, a retirement is an entitlement not a reward, we have a right to a healthy, pain-free, active, fufilling, liesurely lifestyle, paid for by our children. Isn't that what the TV ads show?
0 likes   
This space for rent.


Return to “Off Topic”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests