ATL GUSTAV: Tropical Depression - Discussion

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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7841 Postby Hyperstorm » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:20 am

PTPatrick wrote:Let me remind folks...Lili was OCTOBER...not LABOR DAY

Suffice it to say that in october northern gulf should be pretty inhospitable to support a cat 4...thank you


I never said this was going to be pulling a Lili (going from strong Category 4 to Category 1 in less than 12 hours). What I said was that the situation was similar with southerly shear with dry air intrusion.

Right now, you can DEFINITELY tell the system is fighting to maintain its strength and not weaken extremely rapidly, but you can definitely see the shield of the upper level outflow about to reach it in less than 12 hours. If/when that reaches the system, Gustav may just not ever recover back to a Category 4 (if it's downgraded to a 3). I definitely don't see this becoming a Category 5 with the environment it's in.
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7842 Postby cheezyWXguy » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:21 am

Hyperstorm wrote:
wxmann_91 wrote:
Hyperstorm wrote:\
I can sense your sarcasm.

When a VERY powerful hurricane loses its eye like this system did in such a short amount of time and the southern edge is being impeded by southerly shear which is throwing dry air into it, you WILL see a VERY sharp pressure rise. We saw a very similar situation in 2002 with Hurricane Lili.

I will not be at all surprised if the pressure in this system is now in the 960s and going higher...

I have to disagree there. Gustav lost its eye because it went on land. Decently rough and mountainous land at that.


I disagree with a fact. The terrain over Western Cuba is about as flat and moist as you will find...very similar to the Everglades area of Florida. The eye of Gustav was lost due to an intrusion from dry air due to the southerly shear that's been impacting the system since yesterday afternoon. I can guarantee you if there weren't any thermodynamic problems with Gustav, the system would still have a beautifully formed eye at this time, even after going over land for less than 6 hours.

I believe this will be downgraded to a Category 3 shortly. After that, depending on the speed of this system, it may weaken a little more or maintain status quo until it makes landfall in Louisiana.

No. You are the one who is wrong. I have to agree with wxman on this one. The eye was lost due to land, not dry air. Awfully hard to get dry air into the system when there is none. Dont make a comparison to Katrina over the everglades because that goes in my favor as well, because it lost 10mph over land, just like gustav. And it will NOT be downgraded. You must be crazy, because that is an organizing hurricane.
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7843 Postby bob rulz » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:21 am

wxmann_91 wrote:
Matt-hurricanewatcher wrote:Lets be truthful to our selfs about what is going on, this year is only slightly more favorable then 2007 north of 22 north. The caribbean is the most favorable part of the Atlantic for both this year and last. Above 20 north it is very unfavorable just look at Hanna and all other systems that tried to develop above it, so far this year. It is clear, if you disagree, then please do so.

...

I think the governments judgement was a good one. You just can't take any chances, and they are doing a good job.


This year has been very favorable, actually. SLPs/Heights in July were exceptionally low; waves were coming off at 15N with minimal to no SAL problems. Another very strong MJO burst entered the western hemisphere in mid August which touched off the latest round of activity. You can see the anomalously strong EPAC monsoonal trough that existed both in early July and late August. The fact that we have not seen more majors is completely due to timing and location. Dolly moved too fast and got core'd over Yucatan; Fay was a landlover, all that. ULL's are a part of an active season because they enhance TC outflow and vice versa. Without Fay the ULL that drove Gustav into Hispaniola wouldn't exist; without Gustav the ULL that is shredding Hanna would not exist. Actually without that ULL Hanna would likely be in an environment favorable for intensification as a large ULL sits to its east also providing vertical motion and an outflow channel.

Re: last line, I agree.


Western Cuba is NOT flat like the Everglades. Take a peek at it on Google Earth.

Also, the one and only reason that this did not reach cat 5 intensity in the northwestern Caribbean is because it had a lot of ground to make up. It was still a tropical storm when it left the coast of Jamaica. Ivan, for example, was a cat 4 or 5 across the entire western and central Caribbean. Now that it's likely to move over the loop current, instead of having entire categories of intensity to make up, it only has 20mph to reach cat 5. Considering the environment it's moving over, that's not a lot of ground to make up. It intensified under moderate shear before it hit land, why couldn't it do so now?

It was still able to intensify fairly rapidly and reach upper cat 4 strength with 15-20kts of shear and was still intensifying when it made landfall. It's not a coincidence that the eye filled over right when it moved over land. Why didn't the shear cause it to weaken or at least halt intensification before then? Did the shear just happen to slam it at the exact moment it began moving over land?
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#7844 Postby CrazyC83 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:23 am

Latest data supports 100 kt. I figured it might weaken to a Cat 3 over Cuba...
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7845 Postby cpdaman » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:24 am

952 mb not 960's
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7846 Postby vacanechaser » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:24 am

Hyperstorm wrote:
PTPatrick wrote:Let me remind folks...Lili was OCTOBER...not LABOR DAY

Suffice it to say that in october northern gulf should be pretty inhospitable to support a cat 4...thank you


I never said this was going to be pulling a Lili (going from strong Category 4 to Category 1 in less than 12 hours). What I said was that the situation was similar with southerly shear with dry air intrusion.

Right now, you can DEFINITELY tell the system is fighting to maintain its strength and not weaken extremely rapidly, but you can definitely see the shield of the upper level outflow about to reach it in less than 12 hours. If/when that reaches the system, Gustav may just not ever recover back to a Category 4 (if it's downgraded to a 3). I definitely don't see this becoming a Category 5 with the environment it's in.


sorry, dont see any dry air.... you must be looking at something else... very round cdo... no dry air in there at all..


Image


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#7847 Postby CrazyC83 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:25 am

Also looking at flight data vs. the last satellite pre-eclipse, it wobbled leftward...moved WNW to almost due west...
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7848 Postby Texashawk » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:25 am

Hyperstorm wrote:
wxmann_91 wrote:
Hyperstorm wrote:\
I can sense your sarcasm.

When a VERY powerful hurricane loses its eye like this system did in such a short amount of time and the southern edge is being impeded by southerly shear which is throwing dry air into it, you WILL see a VERY sharp pressure rise. We saw a very similar situation in 2002 with Hurricane Lili.

I will not be at all surprised if the pressure in this system is now in the 960s and going higher...

I have to disagree there. Gustav lost its eye because it went on land. Decently rough and mountainous land at that.


I disagree with a fact. The terrain over Western Cuba is about as flat and moist as you will find...very similar to the Everglades area of Florida. The eye of Gustav was lost due to an intrusion from dry air due to the southerly shear that's been impacting the system since yesterday afternoon. I can guarantee you if there weren't any thermodynamic problems with Gustav, the system would still have a beautifully formed eye at this time, even after going over land for less than 6 hours.

I believe this will be downgraded to a Category 3 shortly. After that, depending on the speed of this system, it may weaken a little more or maintain status quo until it makes landfall in Louisiana.


051900 2327N 08413W 6980 02747 9526 +184 +100 136016 019 032 003 00

yeah, that poor struggling storm is really having a rough go of it now :roll:
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7849 Postby CrazyC83 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:26 am

cpdaman wrote:952 mb not 960's


960s were quite an extreme guess given the situation. Once the VDM comes back it will probably be around 954.
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7850 Postby Hyperstorm » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:26 am

cpdaman wrote:
wxmann_91 wrote:
Hyperstorm wrote:\
I can sense your sarcasm.

When a VERY powerful hurricane loses its eye like this system did in such a short amount of time and the southern edge is being impeded by southerly shear which is throwing dry air into it, you WILL see a VERY sharp pressure rise. We saw a very similar situation in 2002 with Hurricane Lili.

I will not be at all surprised if the pressure in this system is now in the 960s and going higher...

I have to disagree there. Gustav lost its eye because it went on land. Decently rough and mountainous land at that.


I disagree with a fact. The terrain over Western Cuba is about as flat and moist as you will find...very similar to the Everglades area of Florida. The eye of Gustav was lost due to an intrusion from dry air due to the southerly shear that's been impacting the system since yesterday afternoon. I can guarantee you if there weren't any thermodynamic problems with Gustav, the system would still have a beautifully formed eye at this time, even after going over land for less than 6 hours.

I believe this will be downgraded to a Category 3 shortly. After that, depending on the speed of this system, it may weaken a little more or maintain status quo until it makes landfall in Louisiana.


this is the funniest post i have seen tonite on several points....speechless

here is a nice article regarding the "flat moist lands" of western cuba

and a video.....http://www.youtube.com/watch? ... re=related

everglades?

low range of hills in Pinar del Río province, western Cuba. It extends about 40 mi (64 km) northeast from Mantua and comprises the Sierra de los Órganos and the Sierra del Rosario, which rises 2,293 ft (699 m) at El Pan de Guajaibón. The Sierra del Rosario exhibits a multitude of knolls formed of different rock materials, whereas steep limestone cones tower in the Sierra de...[/quote]

I stand corrected on my topography. My apologies. I was only thinking of the southern part of where it crossed and somehow it reminded me of where Charley made landfall which was much more flat. Even with the mountain range you see there on the northern part, they are VERY narrow and would not by itself impact a system. Southerly shear that pushed dry air into the system is to blame for the degradation in the cloud pattern.
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Re:

#7851 Postby ROCK » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:28 am

CrazyC83 wrote:Also looking at flight data vs. the last satellite pre-eclipse, it wobbled leftward...moved WNW to almost due west...




stair stepping possibly...
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Re: Re:

#7852 Postby CrazyC83 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:29 am

ROCK wrote:
CrazyC83 wrote:Also looking at flight data vs. the last satellite pre-eclipse, it wobbled leftward...moved WNW to almost due west...




stair stepping possibly...


Yeah perhaps, since if such is sustained even for a couple hours before resuming NW motion, the landfall location shifts west quite a bit - which would be good for New Orleans but bad for places like Lafayette and Morgan City and even Lake Charles...which is why I hate the fact that all the attention is on New Orleans, since there are other places at risk as well with the slightest change in course. Anywhere from Beaumont to Pascagoula is fair game for this...
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7853 Postby Wx_Warrior » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:31 am

It's like horse racing...track announcers shouldn't even begin to do the play-by-play until the turn for the final stretch...
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7854 Postby wxmann_91 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:31 am

Hyperstorm wrote:I stand corrected on my topography. My apologies. I was only thinking of the southern part of where it crossed and somehow it reminded me of where Charley made landfall which was much more flat. Even with the mountain range you see there on the northern part, they are VERY narrow and would not by itself impact a system. Southerly shear that pushed dry air into the system is to blame for the degradation in the cloud pattern.

You don't need a thick mountain range by any definition to see a rapid degradation of a TC interacting with 2000ft peaks.

There IS dry air/shear... but they're not enervating Gustav. What they likely will do is preclude intensification into a 5, but weakening to anything less than a 3 is probably not going to happen. At least that's my call.
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7855 Postby WxGuy1 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:31 am

The current Maximum Potential Intensity (MPI) graphics suggest that a sub-900 mb Gustav in the Gulf is extremely unlikely. 910-920 mb is possible (based on SSTs, TCHP, etc), but getting that low may be difficult unless shear can decrease to <10 kts.

Gustav MAY have been able to hit <920 mb if it weren't for its interaction with Cuba (i.e. if it had more time to organize over the extremely hot water), but that's very difficult to say. The TCHP (see HERE)and SSTs were highest in that part of the Caribbean (highest anywhere in the Atlantic), and shear looked to be ~15-20 kts, which is certainly far from uber-favorable. As others have noted, conditions really need to be nearly perfect to get a Cat 5 storm (or a storm <920 mb), and I certainly wouldn't say the conditions now are perfect. The mentioned MPI graphics suggest that the only area that would support a <900 mb storm would be in the far NW Caribbean south of Cuba (right where Gustav was). Outflow is being significantly enhanced by strong upper-level divergence over the northern Gulf downstream of an upper-level trough axis (see HERE; note that the upper-level divergence associated with Gustav is enhancing what appears to the "ambient" / environmental divergence as well). 15-20 kts of vertical shear is quite significant, and I have a hard time believing it'll be able to intensify to Cat 5 again if such shear persists (remember, TCHP is lower in the Gulf, particularly as it approaches the coast than it was south of Cuba!).

Image

For the Maximum Potential Intensity (minimum pressure and maximum winds) graphics for the Atlantic (and elsewhere) see --> http://wxmaps.org/pix/hurpot.html#ATL

This may well have a different "mode of flooding" in New Orleans compared to Katrina. Instead of being flooded by Lake Ponch. (strong easterly winds preceding the eye squeezed a lot of water up into the lake, and strong northerly winds to the west of the eye pushed all that accumulated water southward into New Orleans), New Orleans may be levee problems with water pushed up the river from the south. Of course, some water will likely be pumped westward into Lake Ponch., but it doesn't seem as likely that such water will be pushed southward into New Orleans given the current forecast of Gustav staying west of New Orleans (in southerly or southeasterly surface flow at closest approach).

Of course, we are STILL >36 hours from projected landfall, and even a 20 mile diversion to the right / east of the projected track may be all it takes to have another catastrophe on our hands. Right now, it looks like Gustav's official forecast has it ~45-50 miles from New Orleans at closest approach. The "worst case scenario" that I can think of would bring the eastern eyewall over NOLA, which would require only a ~45 mile shift eastward from current forecast. At ~42 hours out, a 45 mile error would be almost nothing relative to historical errors at that forecast hour. If Gustav takes a westward jog to move it another 45-50 miles to the left of the current track (and, therefore, 80-100 miles WSW of NOLA at closest approach), the probably of catastrophic flooding in NOLA is significantly reduced.
Last edited by WxGuy1 on Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

#7856 Postby ROCK » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:31 am

CrazyC83 wrote:
ROCK wrote:
CrazyC83 wrote:Also looking at flight data vs. the last satellite pre-eclipse, it wobbled leftward...moved WNW to almost due west...




stair stepping possibly...


Yeah perhaps, since if such is sustained even for a couple hours before resuming NW motion, the landfall location shifts west quite a bit - which would be good for New Orleans but bad for places like Lafayette and Morgan City and even Lake Charles...which is why I hate the fact that all the attention is on New Orleans, since there are other places at risk as well with the slightest change in course. Anywhere from Beaumont to Pascagoula is fair game for this...




yeah safe to say where ever it goes into LA is going to be in for a rough ride.....
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7857 Postby ConvergenceZone » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:32 am

Hyperstorm wrote:
PTPatrick wrote:Let me remind folks...Lili was OCTOBER...not LABOR DAY

Suffice it to say that in october northern gulf should be pretty inhospitable to support a cat 4...thank you


I never said this was going to be pulling a Lili (going from strong Category 4 to Category 1 in less than 12 hours). What I said was that the situation was similar with southerly shear with dry air intrusion.

Right now, you can DEFINITELY tell the system is fighting to maintain its strength and not weaken extremely rapidly, but you can definitely see the shield of the upper level outflow about to reach it in less than 12 hours. If/when that reaches the system, Gustav may just not ever recover back to a Category 4 (if it's downgraded to a 3). I definitely don't see this becoming a Category 5 with the environment it's in.


I do think that in 30 minutes you'll find that there's a good chance that it might be downgraded to a Cat 3, but only because on the last discussion they said that they were waiting for recon date to show the true intensity of it, but they decided to fix it at 140 mph. Now, with that said, I think over the last hour or hour and 1/2, it has rebounded, not entirely of course, but it's at least on it's way....I'm thinking that when they said 140 mph, it was probably closer to 125 mph, but now I would guess that it's about 130 mph, but again, that's really difficult to call, because it's hard to say what recon is finding, but with the pressure rises, it probably will be lower. It's not going to be stronger than 140 that's for sure.... Now on the 5:00 am update, the pressure should once again show it falling and the winds should be higher....
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#7858 Postby bahamaswx » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:32 am

Going to have to agree with Hyperstorm here. I fully expect Gustav to restrengthen over the loop current, but interaction with Cuba alone cannot have been enough to cause such a rapid deterioration in the cloud pattern.
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Re: Re:

#7859 Postby Texashawk » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:33 am

ROCK wrote:
CrazyC83 wrote:Also looking at flight data vs. the last satellite pre-eclipse, it wobbled leftward...moved WNW to almost due west...




stair stepping possibly...



Remember that since the track is at a fairly oblique angle to the coast, a shift of just a few degrees can change the landfall point 50-100 miles at least. At one point last night, the difference between Central LA and Houston was about a 2.7 degree shift in track. It may not always matter, but it *could* matter.
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Re: Cat. 4 Hurricane Gustav in Gulf of Mexico

#7860 Postby Ivanhater » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:33 am

Image
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