ATL: Ex COLIN - Discussion

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#541 Postby KWT » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:36 am

Hurricane Andrew wrote:First cape verde storm of the season.


Even if they do cause headaches CV systems often are the most interesting to track, not only because of the storm but because of the sheer number of different variables that occur that could make the system track differently.

A nice small ball at the moment thats for sure, good to see its finally in range of the higher resolution Sat.imagery!
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Re: ATL : INVEST 91L - DISCUSSION

#542 Postby Riptide » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:36 am

91L-Colin really does have quite the structure. I'd like to see it expand, looks perfect for solid RI development.
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Re: ATL : INVEST 91L - DISCUSSION

#543 Postby Hugo1989 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:37 am

Wepaaaaa!!!!!! TD #4!!!
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#544 Postby Tampa_God » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:38 am

Yeah, if it's not called a TD by next discussion, I'll be scratching my head.
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#545 Postby Gustywind » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:39 am

Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

Last Updated: 14:08 GMT le 02 août 2010 — Last Comment: 14:36 GMT le 02 août 2010
91L near tropical depression status


Posted by: JeffMasters, 14:08 GMT le 02 août 2010

A tropical wave near 12N 41W, midway between Africa and the Lesser Antilles Islands, is very close to being a tropical depression. NHC labeled this system Invest 91L yesterday, and is giving it a 90% chance of developing into a tropical depression by 8am Wednesday. Wind shear is a low 5 - 10 knots, sea surface temperatures are at record highs, and the dust and dry air of the Saharan Air Layer (SAL) are far enough to the north of 91L to potentially allow further development. The main negative for development appears to be the storm's small size, which makes it vulnerable to modest increases in wind shear or dry air entrainment. A Windsat pass from 5am EDT this morning did not show a closed circulation. Satellite imagery shows that the intensity and areal extent of 91L's heavy thunderstorms is very limited, but that a closed surface circulation may be close to forming. Low-level spiral bands and upper-level outflow are not apparent yet.


Forecast for 91L
There is modest model support for 91L developing into a tropical depression. Three out of six of our reliable models for forecasting tropical cyclone genesis predict 91L will develop into a tropical depression by Tuesday or Wednesday. A west-northwest motion at 10 -15 mph is predicted, which should carry 91L a few hundred miles northeast of the northernmost Lesser Antilles Islands. However, it is possible that 91L would track over the northernmost Lesser Antilles Islands, as predicted by the Canadian model. Squalls from the outer rainbands of 91L may affect islands such as Antigua and Barbuda as early as Wednesday afternoon. As 91L makes its closest approach to the Lesser Antilles on Wednesday, the storm will begin to encounter strong upper-level westerly winds associated with the counter-clockwise flow of air around an upper-level low pressure system centered between Bermuda and Puerto Rico. The latest SHIPS model forecast predicts that these winds will cause wind shear to rise to the moderate level, 10 - 20 knots, by Tuesday night, and to the high level, 20 - 30 knots, by Wednesday. There is also a great deal of dry air associated with the upper level low that may cause problems for 91L. The high wind shear and dry air should weaken and possibly destroy 91L late this week.

A trough of low pressure is expected to move off the U.S. East Coast on Friday, and this trough may be strong enough to recurve 91L far enough to the northwest that the storm will threaten Bermuda. The HWRF and ECMWF models predict 91L could pass very near to Bermuda on Saturday. It is uncertain at this time if the trough will be strong enough to recurve 91L all the way out to sea early next week, as predicted by the GFS model, or leave 91L behind to potentially move westward again into the U.S. East Coast, as predicted by the Canadian model. The amount of wind shear that might be present early next week is also highly uncertain.
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#546 Postby Aquawind » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:39 am

WTNT34 KNHC 021435
TCPAT4
BULLETIN
TROPICAL DEPRESSION FOUR ADVISORY NUMBER 1
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL042010
1100 AM EDT MON AUG 02 2010

...NEW TROPICAL DEPRESSION FORMS IN THE ATLANTIC...


SUMMARY OF 1100 AM EDT...1500 UTC...INFORMATION
-----------------------------------------------
LOCATION...12.6N 41.1W
ABOUT 1365 MI...2200 KM E OF THE LESSER ANTILLES
MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS...35 MPH...55 KM/HR
PRESENT MOVEMENT...WNW OR 290 DEGREES AT 17 MPH...28 KM/HR
MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE...1006 MB...29.71 INCHES


WATCHES AND WARNINGS
--------------------
THERE ARE NO COASTAL WATCHES OR WARNINGS IN EFFECT.


DISCUSSION AND 48-HOUR OUTLOOK
------------------------------
AT 1100 AM EDT...1500 UTC...THE CENTER OF TROPICAL DEPRESSION FOUR
WAS LOCATED NEAR LATITUDE 12.6 NORTH...LONGITUDE 41.1 WEST. THE
DEPRESSION IS MOVING TOWARD THE WEST-NORTHWEST NEAR 17 MPH...28
KM/HR. A CONTINUED MOTION TOWARD THE WEST-NORTHWEST WITH AN
INCREASE IN FORWARD SPEED IS EXPECTED OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS.

MAXIMUM SUSTAINED WINDS ARE NEAR 35 MPH...55 KM/HR...WITH HIGHER
GUSTS. SOME STRENGTHENING IS FORECAST DURING THE NEXT 48 HOURS...
AND THE DEPRESSION COULD BECOME A TROPICAL STORM BY TONIGHT OR
TUESDAY.

THE ESTIMATED MINIMUM CENTRAL PRESSURE IS 1006 MB...29.71 INCHES.


HAZARDS AFFECTING LAND
----------------------
NONE


NEXT ADVISORY
-------------
NEXT COMPLETE ADVISORY...500 PM EDT.

$$
FORECASTER BRENNAN
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#547 Postby thetruesms » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:39 am

Speaking of a lack of good data, here's the last ASCAT pass a few hours ago:
Image

It may not be a swing and a miss, but I'd call it a foul out to the catcher :lol:
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#548 Postby Gustywind » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:39 am

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#549 Postby KWT » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:39 am

TG, it is a TD, the recon flight schedule also now refers to this as TD4, so pretty safe to assume it is TD4 now...just waiting for the offical word...
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#550 Postby Dean4Storms » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:41 am

I'm sorry, but the LLC looks to be near 12.8n 40.8w, don't know where they get a 12.3n. Too far south.

OK, I can live with 12.6N 41.1W :cheesy:
Last edited by Dean4Storms on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL : INVEST 91L - DISCUSSION

#551 Postby SFLcane » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:42 am

Conditions dont appear favorable long-term.

Image
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Re: ATL : INVEST 91L - DISCUSSION

#552 Postby tolakram » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:42 am

TD4

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MI ... 1433.shtml

...

FORECAST VALID 03/0000Z 13.5N 44.0W
MAX WIND 35 KT...GUSTS 45 KT.
34 KT... 30NE 0SE 0SW 30NW.

FORECAST VALID 03/1200Z 14.8N 48.9W
MAX WIND 40 KT...GUSTS 50 KT.
34 KT... 30NE 0SE 0SW 30NW.

FORECAST VALID 04/0000Z 16.4N 53.4W
MAX WIND 45 KT...GUSTS 55 KT.
34 KT... 60NE 30SE 0SW 45NW.

FORECAST VALID 04/1200Z 18.4N 57.4W
MAX WIND 50 KT...GUSTS 60 KT.
50 KT... 15NE 0SE 0SW 0NW.
34 KT... 75NE 45SE 30SW 60NW.

FORECAST VALID 05/1200Z 22.0N 63.0W
MAX WIND 50 KT...GUSTS 60 KT.
50 KT... 30NE 0SE 0SW 15NW.
34 KT... 75NE 45SE 30SW 60NW.

EXTENDED OUTLOOK. NOTE...ERRORS FOR TRACK HAVE AVERAGED NEAR 200 NM
ON DAY 4 AND 250 NM ON DAY 5...AND FOR INTENSITY NEAR 20 KT EACH DAY

OUTLOOK VALID 06/1200Z 26.0N 66.5W
MAX WIND 45 KT...GUSTS 55 KT.

OUTLOOK VALID 07/1200Z 29.0N 68.5W
MAX WIND 45 KT...GUSTS 55 KT.

REQUEST FOR 3 HOURLY SHIP REPORTS WITHIN 300 MILES OF 12.6N 41.1W

NEXT ADVISORY AT 02/2100Z

$$
FORECASTER BRENNAN


...
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#553 Postby KWT » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:43 am

Dean, I think 12.5N is about right myself, certainly what all the data I've seen suggests would be about right...

Track motion of about 280 at the moment would be my best guess, picking up speed as well.

IMO, the NHC track will be shifted slowly left but for now its about what I expected....if it keeps the280 sort of track its on now, it tracks on the southern side of the cone...
Last edited by KWT on Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL : Tropical Depression Four - DISCUSSION

#554 Postby hurricaneCW » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:52 am

A tiny system can not survive 30 knots of wind shear. I personally think TD4/Colin is a dead stick. The only way I can see it surviving is if it triples its size, really ramps up, and the shear isn't as strong. Other than that, forget about it.
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#555 Postby KWT » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:53 am

You maybe right hurricanecw...but alas Andrew says you should never rule out a system just because it may enter a poor region for development...Katrina also wants to point out favourable conditions can easily occur further west/north and allow decent strengthening to occur :wink:

At least we have recon to look forward to!
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Re: ATL : Tropical Depression Four - DISCUSSION

#556 Postby Evil Jeremy » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:55 am

hurricaneCW wrote:A tiny system can not survive 30 knots of wind shear. I personally think TD4/Colin is a dead stick. The only way I can see it surviving is if it triples its size, really ramps up, and the shear isn't as strong. Other than that, forget about it.


Keep in mind that the 30 knots of shear is still days away. Immediately, TD4 is in a low shear environment. If it can become organized and become a moderate Tropical Storm over the next few days, it could survive the shear.
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Re: ATL : Tropical Depression Four - DISCUSSION

#557 Postby hurricaneCW » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:59 am

Does anyone know how much shear impacted 2007 Karen? I know Karen was a pretty big system that was quickly ramping up until the shear got her or even 2006's Chris. He looked like he could have ramped up as well, but the shear got him.
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Re: ATL : Tropical Depression Four - DISCUSSION

#558 Postby KWT » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:03 am

hurricaneCW wrote:Does anyone know how much shear impacted 2007 Karen? I know Karen was a pretty big system that was quickly ramping up until the shear got her or even 2006's Chris. He looked like he could have ramped up as well, but the shear got him.


Thats a good question, I think Chris really got destroyed by some monster mid level shear (it may have been as high as say 50-60kts, to this day that remains one of the most amazingly clear example of the wall of shear occuring) but as for Karen I'm not sure, but given where this one is an its path its reasonable question to ask...maybe I'll have a look back at that thread and see what it says. I think Ingrid was another from that season.

Worth noting the NHC discussion does point out there is a possiblity this could stuggle down the line...
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#559 Postby rockyman » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:04 am

From the Disco:
IT IS WORTH REMINDING USERS THAT THE AVERAGE ERROR OF THE OFFICIAL
TRACK FORECAST AT DAYS 4 AND 5 IS 250 TO 300 MILES.


I think it's significant that the NHC emphasized the average track error at 5 days. Tells me that this is not going to be one of the "easier to track" storms.
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#560 Postby KWT » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:04 am

000
WTNT44 KNHC 021452
TCDAT4
TROPICAL DEPRESSION FOUR DISCUSSION NUMBER 1
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL042010
1100 AM EDT MON AUG 02 2010

DATA FROM AN 1148 UTC ASCAT PASS SUGGEST THAT THE DISTURBANCE IN THE
TROPICAL ATLANTIC NOW HAS A WELL-DEFINED SURFACE CIRCULATION...AND
ADVISORIES ARE INITIATED ON TROPICAL DEPRESSION FOUR. THE INITIAL
INTENSITY IS SET AT 30 KT IN AGREEMENT WITH THE ASCAT DATA AND
DVORAK DATA T-NUMBERS OF 2.0 FROM TAFB AND SAB.

THE LOW-LEVEL CENTER APPEARS TO BE LOCATED ON THE SOUTHEASTERN EDGE
OF THE DEEP CONVECTION...AND IS MOVING RATHER BRISKLY TOWARD THE
WEST-NORTHWEST AT ABOUT 15 KT. MUCH OF THE GUIDANCE SUGGESTS AN
EVEN FASTER MOTION IS LIKELY DURING THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS AS THE
DEPRESSION IS STEERED BY A STRONG SUBTROPICAL RIDGE TO ITS NORTH.
IN FOUR OR FIVE DAYS...THE GLOBAL MODELS SHOW A WEAKNESS DEVELOPING
IN THE RIDGE...WHICH SHOULD RESULT IN A TURN TOWARD THE NORTHWEST
WITH A DECREASE IN FORWARD SPEED. THERE IS QUITE A BIT OF SPREAD
IN THE MODELS BY THE END OF THE PERIOD...WITH THE GFS ON THE LEFT
SIDE OF THE GUIDANCE SUITE AND THE HWRF AND ECMWF FARTHER RIGHT
SHOWING MORE RECURVATURE. THE OFFICIAL FORECAST IS CLOSE TO THE
MULTI-MODEL TVCN CONSENSUS AND IN BEST AGREEMENT WITH THE GFDL. IT
IS WORTH REMINDING USERS THAT THE AVERAGE ERROR OF THE OFFICIAL
TRACK FORECAST AT DAYS 4 AND 5 IS 250 TO 300 MILES.

THE ENVIRONMENT APPEARS FAVORABLE FOR SOME STRENGTHENING OVER THE
NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS...BUT AFTER THAT TIME VERTICAL WIND SHEAR IS
EXPECTED TO INCREASE AS THE CYCLONE APPROACHES AN UPPER-LEVEL
TROUGH AROUND 65W. THE SHIPS MODEL SHOWS THE SHEAR INCREASING TO
AROUND 30 KT BY 72 HOURS...AND THE OFFICIAL FORECAST SHOWS A PEAK
IN INTENSITY AROUND THAT TIME...IN BEST AGREEMENT WITH THE ICON
INTENSITY CONSENSUS. IF THE CYCLONE DOES NOT INTENSIFY IN THE NEXT
DAY OR SO...IT COULD STRUGGLE TO MAINTAIN A CLOSED SURFACE
CIRCULATION WITH SUCH A FAST FORWARD SPEED...AND COULD OPEN BACK UP
INTO A TROPICAL WAVE.

FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INITIAL 02/1500Z 12.6N 41.1W 30 KT
12HR VT 03/0000Z 13.5N 44.0W 35 KT
24HR VT 03/1200Z 14.8N 48.9W 40 KT
36HR VT 04/0000Z 16.4N 53.4W 45 KT
48HR VT 04/1200Z 18.4N 57.4W 50 KT
72HR VT 05/1200Z 22.0N 63.0W 50 KT
96HR VT 06/1200Z 26.0N 66.5W 45 KT
120HR VT 07/1200Z 29.0N 68.5W 45 KT

$$
FORECASTER BRENNAN


ps, follows the NHC graphic on the site *perfectly*...they've probably just decided to use consensus for everything for the first advisory...including strength, which looks the splitting image of the graphical product from 00z this morning.
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