ATL: ERNESTO - Post-Tropical

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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1421 Postby ozonepete » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:31 am

Stormcenter wrote:Good post and I agree 100%.


Frank2 wrote:Much disagreement exists between the much more conservative way of classifying Tropical Depressions, Storms and Hurricanes years ago and what's out there this morning - 30 years ago a disturbance like this would be mentioned in the TWO as one - but not upgraded to a TS or even TD, that's for sure...

What is classified as TS Ernesto looks hardly like a tropical low at all - as others said perhaps it will be downgraded to a TD or wave today...


30 years ago a disturbance like this, which just caused a sustained wind out of the south at 43mph at Barbados at 7AM AST, would be classified as a tropical storm for that reason just for starters. That's for sure.

How many times have we heard that this is dying in the last two days? And now it's pulsing up again.
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1422 Postby Houstonia » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:33 am

Morning observations from Jeff Lindner (HCFCD):

Tropical storm passing through the Windward Island with strong winds.

Discussion:

Ernesto moving through the Windward Islands. Winds gusted to 63mph at St Lucia and sustained winds of 43mph at Barbados in the last few hours. Ernesto is racing westward at 24mph this morning…very fast for a tropical cyclone…and the result in a disorganized system even though some strong winds are being reported on the islands. First few visible images this morning show a sheared system with an exposed low level center to the west of a small and decreasing ball of deep convection. The fast forward motion of the low level center is pushing the center out from under the deep convection and the net result is about 20kts of shear over the system. While the system is well defined on radar, it is not well organized and will have to slow its fast forward motion. It is possible that Ernesto may open up into a tropical wave over the next 24 hours.

Track:

Ernesto remains to the south of a very strong mid Atlantic ridge resulting in the fast forward motion, and this should continue for the next 1-2 days taking the system generally W to WNW through the eastern and central Caribbean Sea. BY the end of day 3 (Sunday) the system will begin to approach the western edge of the sub-tropical high over the SW Atlantic and start to encounter a weakness over the Gulf of Mexico. This weakness which is currently over the SE US will be moving westward this week as the TX high pressure cell builds/moves westward. The GFS and EURO take a weak system into the southern Yucatan and then MX while the CMC, UKMET, GFDL, and HWRF all show Ernesto turning NW into the weakness. The reasoning for the spilt in the guidance at the longer range is the intensity of the system. A weaker system will follow the low level flow and stay southward, while a stronger system feels the weakness in the ridge and begins to bend WNW and then NW. Current NHC track is pretty much down the middle road of the guidance with the GFS and EURO on the left and the GFDL and HWRF on the right. The track forecast for the next 48 hours is fairly high confidence, but the confidence lowers after 48 hours as the guidance spread becomes increasingly large.

Intensity:

The intensity forecast remains a problem as the near term environment is marginally favorable for development and the long term environment favorable. The question is does Ernesto survive the short term to take advantage of the long term. Based on the satellite presentation this morning it is questionable if Ernesto will survive the next 24 hours as the fast westward motion will continue to produce moderate to strong wind shear. Additionally, the eastern Caribbean Sea is typically not a very favorable region for developing tropical systems. Also the GFS and EURO continue to insist that the system will not intensify much, while the latest GFDL, HWRF, and CMC all show Ernesto reaching hurricane intensity in the western Caribbean Sea. Current NHC forecast is leaning toward the stronger guidance and takes Ernesto to a hurricane south of Jamaica and into the NE Yucatan and the SE Gulf of Mexico. It should be noted that conditions will be fairly favorable in the western Caribbean Sea and the LGEM and GFDI guidance makes Ernesto a major hurricane. It is also noted that most of the guidance makes Ernesto a category 2 hurricane about 48 hours prior to the official NHC forecast.

Now would be a good time for residents to review their hurricane preparation plans!


90L:

New tropical wave/surface low south of the Cape Verde Islands has developed some organized thunderstorms and continues to show signs of development this morning. NHC gives this system a 30% chance of tropical cyclone formation as it moves WNW at 10-15mph.
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1423 Postby TropicalAnalystwx13 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:34 am

tolakram wrote:Where is that well defined center of circulation?

live loop: http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/ge ... umframes=5

Bands on the west side of the storm are moving south and convection over what may have been the center is dying out while a new pulse is occurring further north. This looks more like a wave trying to close off a circulation than a storm with a clear circulation.

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Using the low-level cloud product might help.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/floaters/05L/flash-rgb-long.html
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#1424 Postby TropicalAnalystwx13 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:35 am

Look at all the new banding. This thing is organizing, not falling apart.

Image
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1425 Postby PTrackerLA » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:47 am

Very good post from Dr. Masters. Seems like if Ernesto survives the next 24 hours the GOM will be highly in play.
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1426 Postby HurrMark » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:50 am

ozonepete wrote:
Stormcenter wrote:Good post and I agree 100%.


Frank2 wrote:Much disagreement exists between the much more conservative way of classifying Tropical Depressions, Storms and Hurricanes years ago and what's out there this morning - 30 years ago a disturbance like this would be mentioned in the TWO as one - but not upgraded to a TS or even TD, that's for sure...

What is classified as TS Ernesto looks hardly like a tropical low at all - as others said perhaps it will be downgraded to a TD or wave today...


30 years ago a disturbance like this, which just caused a sustained wind out of the south at 43mph at Barbados at 7AM AST, would be classified as a tropical storm for that reason just for starters. That's for sure.

How many times have we heard that this is dying in the last two days? And now it's pulsing up again.


I remember in 1997, there was a wave which produced sustained winds over 60 mph in the eastern Caribbean, but didn't have a closed circulation. Just because there is wind with a system doesn't mean it's closed.
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Re:

#1427 Postby ozonepete » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:52 am

TropicalAnalystwx13 wrote:Look at all the new banding. This thing is organizing, not falling apart.

http://www.ghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/GOES/GOES ... APOUCk.jpg


I agree. As I said before, I can't count how many times or people on here and in the media have said this was weakening when it was merely pulsing up and down in fairly regular cycles. Of course it's just the flip side of wobble watching, lol.
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1428 Postby tailgater » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:55 am

Looks decent to me.

Image
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1429 Postby Sanibel » Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:58 am

These kind of storms traditionally trip-up when passing through the islands and into the eastern Caribbean. They are travelling too fast so they tend to show indefinite form but then come together in the western Caribbean.
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1430 Postby ozonepete » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:00 am

HurrMark wrote:
ozonepete wrote:
30 years ago a disturbance like this, which just caused a sustained wind out of the south at 43mph at Barbados at 7AM AST, would be classified as a tropical storm for that reason just for starters. That's for sure.

How many times have we heard that this is dying in the last two days? And now it's pulsing up again.


I remember in 1997, there was a wave which produced sustained winds over 60 mph in the eastern Caribbean, but didn't have a closed circulation. Just because there is wind with a system doesn't mean it's closed.


I said "for starters". Obviously this had sustained winds of tropical storm force from the north and east and then from the south and west as it passed the southern islands with a rapid pressure drop and then rise as the center passsed. There was complete wind evidence from all of the islands there, along with the heavy rain and thunderstorms. Even 60 years ago, when there was no satellite and radar this would have been classified on that evidence. Appearance on satellite and radar is the least reliable, not the most. If this were an open wave we would see that in the wind and pressure evidence this morning.
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#1431 Postby Javlin » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:02 am

Good thing there is no shear @21kts forward motion not a cloud be on top of this one.I see the forward motion being this system biggest enemy myself surprised it has held together as well as it has?
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1432 Postby plasticup » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:07 am

TropicalAnalystwx13 wrote:
tolakram wrote:Where is that well defined center of circulation?

live loop: http://wwwghcc.msfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/ge ... umframes=5

Bands on the west side of the storm are moving south and convection over what may have been the center is dying out while a new pulse is occurring further north. This looks more like a wave trying to close off a circulation than a storm with a clear circulation.

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The posts in this forum are NOT official forecast and should not be used as such. They are just the opinion of the poster and may or may not be backed by sound meteorological data. They are NOT endorsed by any professional institution or storm2k.org. For official information, please refer to the NHC and NWS products.

Using the low-level cloud product might help.

http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/PS/TROP/floaters/05L/flash-rgb-long.html

oh SNAP.

In other news, the GOM solution is starting to get traction in the models. Of all the ways this could end up, that one frightens me the most.
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Models

#1433 Postby PTrackerLA » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:17 am

bamajammer4eva wrote:I know that recently the NHC posted a notice saying they are going to be trying 7 day forecasts this year but they haven't been shown on most forecast maps including the ones on their site. Anybody else notice that on some model charts the OFCL/OFCI (Official) track now goes out to hr 168/7 days?? OFCL is their 5 day position from 11PM and OFCI is the new 7 day.

Image


Sorry for the repost but can someone link me to where these plots are posted? I'd like to keep track of the NHC 7 day track. Thanks.
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#1434 Postby Weatherguy173 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:23 am

Image

I am not sure if this is accurate or not, but does it make sense that the Maximum Surface Wind found by the Hurricane Hunter Aircraft read in the category of 96-110 mph??? The image is linked at: http://icons-ak.wunderground.com/data/i ... 205_hd.gif

can someone explain this?
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#1435 Postby floridasun78 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:25 am

can some one post time that models come out ? allan remove time their came out from his site
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#1436 Postby Rgv20 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:29 am

Dallas NWS morning discussion concerning Ernesto..

"I AM ANXIOUSLY AWAITING THE 06Z GFS...SINCE YESTERDAY IT BROUGHT
US THE DELIGHTFUL FICTION OF A NORTH TEXAS TROPICAL STORM ON DAY
10. IT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNUSUAL FOR A TROPICAL SYSTEM TO STEER
INTO A RIDGE. LATER GFS RUNS HAVE A MORE SENSIBLE SOLUTION OF A
PATH WESTWARD INTO MEXICO...A SOLUTION SHARED BY THE ECMWF. 84"
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Re:

#1437 Postby TreasureIslandFLGal » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:33 am

Rgv20 wrote:Dallas NWS morning discussion concerning Ernesto..

"I AM ANXIOUSLY AWAITING THE 06Z GFS...SINCE YESTERDAY IT BROUGHT
US THE DELIGHTFUL FICTION OF A NORTH TEXAS TROPICAL STORM ON DAY
10. IT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNUSUAL FOR A TROPICAL SYSTEM TO STEER
INTO A RIDGE. LATER GFS RUNS HAVE A MORE SENSIBLE SOLUTION OF A
PATH WESTWARD INTO MEXICO...A SOLUTION SHARED BY THE ECMWF. 84"


HPC shows the usual TX ridge retreating to the northwest, which allows the storm to get there. Maybe this guy doesn't believe that can happen? ah well..
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Re: ATL: ERNESTO - Tropical Storm

#1438 Postby ConvergenceZone » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:37 am

I noticed that the latest NHC discussion says that they might be generous by giving it a
45 mph wind speed...I wonder if that means that it might be closer to 35 mph or 40 mph?
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Re:

#1439 Postby ozonepete » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:38 am

Weatherguy173 wrote:http://icons-ak.wunderground.com/data/images/at201205_hd.gif

I am not sure if this is accurate or not, but does it make sense that the Maximum Surface Wind found by the Hurricane Hunter Aircraft read in the category of 96-110 mph??? The image is linked at: http://icons-ak.wunderground.com/data/i ... 205_hd.gif

can someone explain this?


I sure can't. Weather Underground is usually quite reliable, although I never use them for recon stats. But that 100 mph just doesn't seem possible. Maybe it was flight level and WU mixed it up or some other error.
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Re: Re:

#1440 Postby ConvergenceZone » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:39 am

TreasureIslandFLGal wrote:
Rgv20 wrote:Dallas NWS morning discussion concerning Ernesto..

"I AM ANXIOUSLY AWAITING THE 06Z GFS...SINCE YESTERDAY IT BROUGHT
US THE DELIGHTFUL FICTION OF A NORTH TEXAS TROPICAL STORM ON DAY
10. IT WOULD BE HIGHLY UNUSUAL FOR A TROPICAL SYSTEM TO STEER
INTO A RIDGE. LATER GFS RUNS HAVE A MORE SENSIBLE SOLUTION OF A
PATH WESTWARD INTO MEXICO...A SOLUTION SHARED BY THE ECMWF. 84"


HPC shows the usual TX ridge retreating to the northwest, which allows the storm to get there. Maybe this guy doesn't believe that can happen? ah well..



wow, I didn't know that a ridge is suppose to protect texas again??? I'm surpised he thinks it's
going into mexico though, but he probably knows more than I do, lol....
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