ATL: ALBERTO - Post-Tropical

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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#301 Postby Aric Dunn » Wed May 23, 2018 9:46 am

gatorcane wrote:I am finding a hard time seeing how the GFS is going to completely bust here when looking at the shear map at 72 hours. How is anything going to consolidate in the Central GOM like the ECMWF shows with that shear? Situation reminds me a bit of Hermine in 2016 when it was east of the Bahamas heading west. ECMWF said CAT 1 into South Florida just a 4-5 days out but the GFS said nope an upper low was going to develop in the Bahamas and prevent any development. GFS was right on with this one and Hermine was nothing but a naked swirl passing through the FL straits:

[img]https://s9.postimg.cc/3vdwc35pb/gfs_shear_watl_13.png[/ig]

[img]https://s9.postimg.cc/y1gw4rewf/track.gif[/ig]


Euro Simulated IR any questions ?

Image
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#302 Postby stormlover2013 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:46 am

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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#303 Postby Aric Dunn » Wed May 23, 2018 9:48 am

toad strangler wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:Yeah the GFS is lost and crying in a corner.. :P


The GFS has climo on it's side. Does that make it correct? Of course not but climo has to be factored in especially with the forecasted shear ....


"GFS wl be discounted attm due to disparity in
its ensemble members, apparent feedback, and deviation from
EC/CMC as noted by recent WPC hemispheric discussion."

From MLB office...
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion: STWO- 0%-60%

#304 Postby Aric Dunn » Wed May 23, 2018 9:49 am

caneman wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:About time someone made it public they are discounting the GFS.. its off its rocker..


I am not going with any model pre system development
We won't know til the end game. Anyone claiming one has performed better than another or will perform better when nothing has actually developed should know better. The only concern right now is the massive amount of rain especially if it targets those inundated already.


"GFS wl be discounted attm due to disparity in
its ensemble members, apparent feedback, and deviation from
EC/CMC as noted by recent WPC hemispheric discussion."

any questions ?
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion: STWO- 0%-60%

#305 Postby cycloneye » Wed May 23, 2018 9:49 am

12z Best Track is inland.


Location: 18.5°N 88.3°W
Maximum Winds: 25 kt Gusts: N/A
Minimum Central Pressure: 1010 mb
Environmental Pressure: 1012 mb
Radius of Circulation: 210 NM
Radius of Maximum Wind: 180 NM

Image
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#306 Postby txwatcher91 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:56 am

SFLcane wrote:I'am with gatorcane and find any well stacked low in the gulf highly suspect. Environment just looks awful. lol GFS 10+ inches across SFL EURO 2-4



It's not hard to believe when models like the CMC and NAM are showing low 200-850mb shear over the system, almost nonexistent actually. Current shear has no bearing on what it will look like in a few days. Not saying CMC/NAM are right but this depiction by the CMC last night showed a nice setup for organization and stacking of the system.
Image
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion: STWO- 0%-60%

#307 Postby caneman » Wed May 23, 2018 9:56 am

Aric Dunn wrote:
caneman wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:About time someone made it public they are discounting the GFS.. its off its rocker..


I am not going with any model pre system development. We won't know til the end game. Anyone claiming one has performed better than another or will perform better when nothing has actually developed should know better. The only concern right now is the massive amount of rain especially if it targets those inundated already.


"GFS wl be discounted attm due to disparity in
its ensemble members, apparent feedback, and deviation from
EC/CMC as noted by recent WPC hemispheric discussion."

any questions ?


I'm not following any model at the moment. Having lived on the West coast of Florida since 1976, I'll trust my own observations, history and experience. Couple that with enormous historical uncertainty prior to any development.

Any questions??? Please let's add value to the thread instead of rehashing same old same old.
Last edited by caneman on Wed May 23, 2018 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#308 Postby MississippiWx » Wed May 23, 2018 9:59 am

Kind of long, but here is an excellent discussion from NWS New Orleans with details about the system this weekend. They explain the differences between the GFS/Other models and why the GFS is a bit suspect, but still a possibility. Enjoy!


“A long wave trough over the open eastpac will dig today causing
the subtropical jet to buckle offshore of the Baha Pen. This will
also kick the large upper low over the innermountain west to the
NE. As the subtropical jet buckles southward over the eastpac, it
will buckle northward downstream over northern Mexico and southern
Texas by late today. This will be the first chance to get a good
sampling of these jet winds and get something concrete to injest
in the model solutions. This could occur as early as 00zThursday
or (7pm)today if we get a good set of RAOB out of northern Mexico.
So the evening model runs should tend to come into better
agreement. If not, we will need to wait on the 12zThursday run
when the subtropical jet has moved into southern Arizona, New
Mexico and Texas. The reaction to all this buckling upstream will
cause a strong buckling southward in the jet over the gulf digging
out a deep and eventually sharp upper trough. Relatively stronger
winds will continue to be brought down on the west side of this
trough causing it to become sharp and stand through the weekend
and well into next week. All models do this, but the GFS would
like to keep wind speeds the same width and equal across the
channel through the base of the trough. Although the wind speeds
do slow by 10kt as they accelerate in direction around the trough
base. This occurs even as the trough sharpens. This seems a little
suspect. The Euro has this belt of winds much narrower when
accelerating through the base of the trough which would seem more
accurate. The area this occurs is near over the Yucatan and the
time frame is SUN 06z, then again at 18z. But the GFS would be a
better case than the EURO, bringing the area around 3 to 6 inches
of rainfall through mid next week.

All other models have something in between or totally 180 from
this. The Euro wants to keep the broad sfc circulation and
attendant sfc low coupled while large convective blowups
repetitively cause their own small convective lows and
circulations. And it looks as if the EURO would like to keep the
larger sfc low moving into the areas of intense convection to
couple and become the new slightly stronger sfc low. This may be
why the Euro also deepens the system the most. This scenario
would also make sense, especially since the upper trough should
remain in place allowing for these intense bursts and transport of
the sfc low northward along the belt of deep moisture. If this
were to play out though, it would be the worst case scenario out
of all other model solutions by bringing the area rainfall totals
of 8 to 12 inches as the sfc low would wobble and lose stearing as
it reaches the coast.

So all in all, both these solutions are possible with only the GFS
being slightly questionable with the subtropical jet. But either
only one or something in between will eventually play out. Again,
the sampling of the subtropical jet late today or Thursday morning
will give much better clues to which or these scenarios will be
more accurate. But regardless of which solution wins, the area
will receive some relatively high totals of rainfall starting
Saturday and lasting into at least mid next week.”
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#309 Postby stormreader » Wed May 23, 2018 10:00 am

Aric Dunn wrote:
gatorcane wrote:I am finding a hard time seeing how the GFS is going to completely bust here when looking at the shear map at 72 hours. How is anything going to consolidate in the Central GOM like the ECMWF shows with that shear? Situation reminds me a bit of Hermine in 2016 when it was east of the Bahamas heading west. ECMWF said CAT 1 into South Florida just a 4-5 days out but the GFS said nope an upper low was going to develop in the Bahamas and prevent any development. GFS was right on with this one and Hermine was nothing but a naked swirl passing through the FL straits:

[img]https://s9.postimg.cc/3vdwc35pb/gfs_shear_watl_13.png[/ig]

[img]https://s9.postimg.cc/y1gw4rewf/track.gif[/ig]


Euro Simulated IR any questions ?

Image

That's the key chart, Aric. And you see the obvious bend west (precip) reflecting something of a high pressure push from the Fl penninsula out into the GOM. So I'm thinking this is a serious N Gulf Coast rainfall threat. And with some inland meandering (slightly further west later in the forecast period) the rainfall threat could extend somewhat further west even than is seen on that chart.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#310 Postby caneman » Wed May 23, 2018 10:04 am

Regardless of which model will be correct. There is enormous uncertainty prior to actual development or if there is even any development at all or how strong or weak. I'll start biting on models once developed. For now, climo is all we really have to go on.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#311 Postby psyclone » Wed May 23, 2018 10:04 am

Sea temps over the extreme eastern Gulf (east of about 85 longitude) remain anomalously cool. hopefully that helps to mitigate the heavy rain threat over the west side of the peninsula to some extent. that, along with a slightly more westerly solution might push the threat of extreme rain potential farther west...nevertheless it sure looks like a wet pattern.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#312 Postby txwatcher91 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:09 am

caneman wrote:Regardless of which model will be correct. There is enormous uncertainty prior to actual development or if there is even any development at all or how strong or weak. I'll start biting on models once developed. For now, climo is all we really have to go on.


Other than GFS you have a pretty strong camp with development. The UK, Navgem, Euro, CMC and NAM all agree on a weak to moderate TS. Not that it matters much since impacts will be the same.. but it is worth noting these models all have a drop in the shear to very low levels and pass the low near or over the loop current. It's entirely possible it could organize much quicker than anticipated as well. I would put Pensacola to New Orleans as the most likely area to see the landfall from 90L, GFS seems to be having a lot of convective feedback and vorticity issues.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#313 Postby W8NC4TX » Wed May 23, 2018 10:15 am

Someone here (or maybe in the model thread) mentioned the TX/LA border earlier :eek: :cry:
I thought TX was relatively "safe" from any threat from 90L. We have people here that still haven't finished recovering from Harvey and surely wouldn't like to hear that a tropical rain event is coming so soon. Any significant reason for us at the border to worry about this invest?
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#314 Postby BobHarlem » Wed May 23, 2018 10:25 am

W8NC4TX wrote:Someone here (or maybe in the model thread) mentioned the TX/LA border earlier :eek: :cry:
I thought TX was relatively "safe" from any threat from 90L. We have people here that still haven't finished recovering from Harvey and surely wouldn't like to hear that a tropical rain event is coming so soon. Any significant reason for us at the border to worry about this invest?


Model wars are kicking up over something that hasn't even developed yet, this system will likely be east heavy on the weather, I don't see any reason to be concerned that far west. Al/Panhandle is my guess. Florida gets most of the rain outside of there.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion: STWO- 0%-60%

#315 Postby Steve » Wed May 23, 2018 10:28 am

gatorcane wrote:
Steve wrote:
Aric Dunn wrote:About time someone made it public they are discounting the GFS.. its off its rocker..


Yeah. I think I got what it was doing, but it should serve as an early reminder to people who live in area "x" not to go with the model that puts you at the biggest threat. Go with science and known biases in order to minimize getting fooled by emotion. As of now, the Panhandle looks to get smashed.


Regardless if model solution, it looks pretty clear some of the heaviest rainfalls will be over peninsular Florida because the weather will be mostly on the east side (and north side) of the system well away from the center not to mention as the system heads north in the Central or Eastern Gulf, it will start to expand and evolve into something more subtropical like a large comma where a continuous rainband could setup right over the FL peninsula not just the west coast of Florida. Even the CMC rainfall accumulation map shows a swath of significant rainfall for SE Florida despite it showing the system landfalling in Alabama.


No question about it. That's what I said yesterday (areas east of the "center" and particularly all of Florida), but I think some people want to go with home cooking just the same. Otherwise, I completely agree with you about the potential.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#316 Postby Aric Dunn » Wed May 23, 2018 10:31 am

With the convection that has been ongoing this morning... Would not be surprised if we get a halfway decent llc out of it. Appears to be enough convergence. It, however, will move over the Yucatan over the next 24 plus hours. but if we do get a decently defined circ early on then as it moves into the gulf it would take less time to organize.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#317 Postby stormlover2013 » Wed May 23, 2018 10:36 am

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysi ... 312&fh=165

icon 4 days out, I don't trust anything past 4 days usually really 3 days
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Discussion

#318 Postby W8NC4TX » Wed May 23, 2018 10:52 am

BobHarlem wrote:
W8NC4TX wrote:Someone here (or maybe in the model thread) mentioned the TX/LA border earlier :eek: :cry:
I thought TX was relatively "safe" from any threat from 90L. We have people here that still haven't finished recovering from Harvey and surely wouldn't like to hear that a tropical rain event is coming so soon. Any significant reason for us at the border to worry about this invest?


Model wars are kicking up over something that hasn't even developed yet, this system will likely be east heavy on the weather, I don't see any reason to be concerned that far west. Al/Panhandle is my guess. Florida gets most of the rain outside of there.


Ahh, yes. The yearly "my model can kick your model's butt" fight song lol. Keeps things lively :) I know nobody wants lots of rain dumped on them, especially over a holiday, but it will be a relief to my poor state if 90L stays far away. My condolences to whoever has their memorial weekend ruined tho. :cry:
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#319 Postby CyclonicFury » Wed May 23, 2018 11:02 am

12z GFS more of the same.
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Re: ATL: INVEST 90L - Models

#320 Postby chris_fit » Wed May 23, 2018 11:04 am

12Z GFS still says FL - stronger too...

Image
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