ATL: DORIAN - Post-Tropical - Discussion

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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1021 Postby Shell Mound » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:01 pm

Shell Mound wrote:The strength and persistence of the mid-level circulation may play a key role in the survival and intensity of DORIAN down the road, should it manage to survive the next day and a half. By days two and three, the large-scale TUTT to the east of Bermuda will retrograde and fill, allowing northerly mid-level shear to weaken and veer, thereby advecting a more unstable air mass from the ITCZ, while anticyclonic (divergent) flow begins to take hold near Puerto Rico. If the MLC remains vigorous and compact by then, as seems probable, then DORIAN could certainly reorganise and couple (a new) low-level and mid-level centres, even if a LLC is very weak or nonexistent at the moment. High environmental pressures seem to favour DORIAN remaining a small system as it nears the Greater Antilles and then passes beyond into the Bahamas. Then the only real inhibitor to further, potentially rapid deepening would be the degree of interaction with either PR or the Dominican Republic or both. Currently, the TUTT to the east of Bermuda seems to be more cut-off than originally forecast, suggesting a high degree of anticyclonic wave breaking, which would favour a faster retrogression, allowing more favourable conditions over DORIAN in two or three days (probably the former vs. the latter). This would also potentially favour convection on the northern and eastern sides of DORIAN by then, which would imply that any LLC/MLC coupling would take place farther northeast, increasing the likelihood that DORIAN would miss the DR, quite possibly "splitting the gap" between the DR and PR, i.e., over the Mona Passage. IF this takes place, then the combination of a rebuilding mid-level ridge to the north and very favourable (low) vertical shear levels, PLUS extremely warm SSTs and deep oceanic heat content over the Bahamas/FL Straits, along with improving humidity levels, could very well set the stage for an ANDREW- or 1935-type scenario. Of course, this is highly uncertain, but if everything goes just right, then the potential ceiling for DORIAN is, in my estimation, extremely high, with steering favouring a likely possible threat, beyond the south-central Bahamas, the southernmost FL peninsula and the Keys. DO NOT discount farther SW/stronger shifts in terms of track and intensity on the EPS/GEFS. A FL Straits/Keys/Gulf threat, potentially VERY strong, is well within the realm of possibility, with further threats to the W/C Gulf Coast (TX/LA) possible down the line.

One last thing: compare current CIMSS data to the 850-250 mb U-anomalies for ANDREW on 20-23 August 1992. VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL placement of features.

Edit: I apologise for not uploading images from ESRL, but I don't like all the cookies on image-hosting sites. Just click on the latter link and put in the options.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1022 Postby AtlanticWind » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:04 pm

The 11pm discussion suggests they are not expecting much shear in the eastern carribean
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1023 Postby Hurricaneman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:09 pm

Shell Mound wrote:
Shell Mound wrote:The strength and persistence of the mid-level circulation may play a key role in the survival and intensity of DORIAN down the road, should it manage to survive the next day and a half. By days two and three, the large-scale TUTT to the east of Bermuda will retrograde and fill, allowing northerly mid-level shear to weaken and veer, thereby advecting a more unstable air mass from the ITCZ, while anticyclonic (divergent) flow begins to take hold near Puerto Rico. If the MLC remains vigorous and compact by then, as seems probable, then DORIAN could certainly reorganise and couple (a new) low-level and mid-level centres, even if a LLC is very weak or nonexistent at the moment. High environmental pressures seem to favour DORIAN remaining a small system as it nears the Greater Antilles and then passes beyond into the Bahamas. Then the only real inhibitor to further, potentially rapid deepening would be the degree of interaction with either PR or the Dominican Republic or both. Currently, the TUTT to the east of Bermuda seems to be more cut-off than originally forecast, suggesting a high degree of anticyclonic wave breaking, which would favour a faster retrogression, allowing more favourable conditions over DORIAN in two or three days (probably the former vs. the latter). This would also potentially favour convection on the northern and eastern sides of DORIAN by then, which would imply that any LLC/MLC coupling would take place farther northeast, increasing the likelihood that DORIAN would miss the DR, quite possibly "splitting the gap" between the DR and PR, i.e., over the Mona Passage. IF this takes place, then the combination of a rebuilding mid-level ridge to the north and very favourable (low) vertical shear levels, PLUS extremely warm SSTs and deep oceanic heat content over the Bahamas/FL Straits, along with improving humidity levels, could very well set the stage for an ANDREW- or 1935-type scenario. Of course, this is highly uncertain, but if everything goes just right, then the potential ceiling for DORIAN is, in my estimation, extremely high, with steering favouring a likely possible threat, beyond the south-central Bahamas, the southernmost FL peninsula and the Keys. DO NOT discount farther SW/stronger shifts in terms of track and intensity on the EPS/GEFS. A FL Straits/Keys/Gulf threat, potentially VERY strong, is well within the realm of possibility, with further threats to the W/C Gulf Coast (TX/LA) possible down the line.

One last thing: compare current CIMSS data to the 850-250 mb U-anomalies for ANDREW on 20-23 August 1992. VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL placement of features.

Edit: I apologise for not uploading images from ESRL, but I don't like all the cookies on image-hosting sites. Just click on the latter link and put in the options.
the fact that you’re mentioning Andrew is quite concerning as this scenario would be the worst case scenario for Florida the difference being that Dorian will bring Flooding to Hispaniola and high winds and flooding to Puerto Rico
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1024 Postby toad strangler » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:10 pm

Andrew was in a much different spot. I don’t get it. Similar set ups aside.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1025 Postby Hypercane_Kyle » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:12 pm

toad strangler wrote:Andrew was in a much different spot. I don’t get it. Similar set ups aside.


Andrew didn't have to deal with any real land interaction either. That's the wild card with this one. A lot of tropical cyclone's simply cannot recover from so much as looking at Hispaniola the wrong way.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1026 Postby Hurricaneman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:18 pm

Recon can’t get to the center due to Barbados , May have to wait about an half hour before the next center fix
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1027 Postby Bocadude85 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:19 pm

Dorian is such a small system, if he collides head on with Hispaniola then I would think it’s game over. Hopefully for those of you in Florida that is what happens.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1028 Postby toad strangler » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:22 pm

Bocadude85 wrote:Dorian is such a small system, if he collides head on with Hispaniola then I would think it’s game over. Hopefully for those of you in Florida that is what happens.


Agree. But This has been said a hundred times already. It’s going to be a long 24-36 hrs before that’s figured out.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1029 Postby cycloneye » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:25 pm

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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1030 Postby Michele B » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:25 pm

psyclone wrote:
SFLcane wrote:
AtlanticWind wrote:Satellite Presentation not as impressive tonight.


Unimpressive is an understatement might not be around to long.


based on presentation the question of near term survival has become more interesting than long range model runs. Should the storm dissipate there would still remain the potential for regeneration if a disturbance remains...when and if it finds more favorable conditions. at this time of year everything needs to be watched, even a "dead" storm. Harvey is a great example and even Katrina's evolution come to mind..


TWC just did a look back at Andrew after an anniversary of sorts.....

Interesting thing.....it was a "little storm," too, and no one thought much of it, and thought it wouldn't make it - due to prevailing conditions.....

I'm not saying this is going to turn into an Andrew. I'm just saying, it's curious to me that these storms SEEM to be determined (sounds like I'm anthropomorphizing this storm!) to grow into a full-fledged hurricane against all odds.

I guess what I'm really saying is: Don't be surprised if this one makes it to hurricane status despite the supposed impossible conditions. It's happened before.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1031 Postby Hurricaneman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:28 pm

The thing I’m looking at is possible center relocation under the MLC
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussionwe

#1032 Postby AtlanticWind » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:31 pm

https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/s ... &length=24

Outflow to the west of Dorian looks much improved
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1033 Postby Hurricaneman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:32 pm


If anything it looks like the MLC might be NE of the surface reflection hence it wouldn’t surprise me to see a center relocation
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1034 Postby Bocadude85 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:34 pm

Hurricaneman wrote:The thing I’m looking at is possible center relocation under the MLC


Yea seems like some reorganization is taking place, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the llc relocate.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussionwe

#1035 Postby Shell Mound » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:39 pm

AtlanticWind wrote:https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/sector_band.php?sat=G16&sector=car&band=GEOCOLOR&length=24

Outflow to the west of Dorian looks much improved

Actually, the evident expansion of outflow on the southern side is a more important indicator, since it suggests northerly mid-level shear is lessening.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1036 Postby Hurricaneman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:32 pm

This might be relocating, the low they found with 1009 pressure might have been spit out and might be quite a bit farther north
Last edited by Hurricaneman on Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1037 Postby jaxfladude » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:32 pm

Here in NE FLA not liking some of the models showning East Coast Florida as possible landfall being moved slowly northwards. Still too early to say for sure but SE FLA still most likely if Dorian makes it past the Caribbean Islands right. Correct if wrong.

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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1038 Postby AxaltaRacing24 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:39 pm

jaxfladude wrote:Here in NE FLA not liking some of the models showning East Coast Florida as possible landfall being moved slowly northwards. Still too early to say for sure but SE FLA still most likely if Dorian makes it past the Caribbean Islands right. Correct if wrong.

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the models will likely continue to windshield wipe it for a few days.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1039 Postby stormhunter7 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:41 pm

Recon data is showing surface center moving wsw and pressure rising. IR sat shows possible MLC to the ENE of surface center. Definitely some NE shear, and becoming decoupled from surface to mid-level, IMO.
Last edited by stormhunter7 on Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATL: DORIAN - Tropical Storm - Discussion

#1040 Postby HDGator » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:44 pm

Michele B wrote:
psyclone wrote:
SFLcane wrote:
Unimpressive is an understatement might not be around to long.


based on presentation the question of near term survival has become more interesting than long range model runs. Should the storm dissipate there would still remain the potential for regeneration if a disturbance remains...when and if it finds more favorable conditions. at this time of year everything needs to be watched, even a "dead" storm. Harvey is a great example and even Katrina's evolution come to mind..


TWC just did a look back at Andrew after an anniversary of sorts.....

Interesting thing.....it was a "little storm," too, and no one thought much of it, and thought it wouldn't make it - due to prevailing conditions.....

I'm not saying this is going to turn into an Andrew. I'm just saying, it's curious to me that these storms SEEM to be determined (sounds like I'm anthropomorphizing this storm!) to grow into a full-fledged hurricane against all odds.

I guess what I'm really saying is: Don't be surprised if this one makes it to hurricane status despite the supposed impossible conditions. It's happened before.

This was a pretty good recap of the little storm that could and became Andrew on his 25th anniversary.
I'm not saying it's an analog now but those of us in S FL have seen it and have memories of what can happen at the worst case.
It was certainly an expample of what can happen in favorable conditions across the Bahamas in a couple of days.
Maybe that affects our judgement; maybe not.
[youtube]https://youtu.be/LIuRYuLaeW8[/youtube]
Last edited by HDGator on Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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