ATL: SAM - Remnants - Discussion

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DioBrando
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1061 Postby DioBrando » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:26 pm

Teban54 wrote:
DioBrando wrote:
Teban54 wrote:I have access to some Chinese forums for weather enthusiasts, who are usually angry about JTWC's underestimations (just like all the WPac watchers here are). They're redirecting their anger on NHC now.

ayo hit me up with the link or screencaps buddy boyo thanks in advance

Here you go, with my quick translations:
https://i.imgur.com/MRdSTL3.png
https://i.imgur.com/o8K86zp.png
(Source)
FYI, I don't think they're genuinely showing disrespect towards the NHC or any other agencies; it's more of a joke. And this post does not represent my own opinion, though personally I do think 125 kts is an underestimate.

(Even though SSHWS is not officially used in the WPac, not even by their own CMA, it's pretty commonly used among weather enthusiasts.)

Agreed with 125 knots being an underestimate. looks more like 135 tbh ngl.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1062 Postby NotoSans » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:31 pm

I think the main reason why NHC decided to discard the higher SFMR and dropsonde winds is that they are not recorded in the right front quadrant, where the maximum winds tend to locate. This lends credence to NHC’s claim that these winds are more associated with mesovortices, rather than the overall circulation.

This is not the first time NHC adopts this line of reasoning. Felix’s 162kt SMFR and dropsonde data were rejected for similar reason.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1063 Postby Woofde » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:34 pm

I still don't get why wind speed is the primary determinant for cyclone strength. Pressure is clear-cut and consistent. Wind speed is so needlessly subjective.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1064 Postby bob rulz » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Because a storm's pressure doesn't determine the amount of damage it does.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1065 Postby Teban54 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:47 pm

All the debates aside, Sam looks better now than when recon was in the storm, and appears to be at least holding steady if not still slowly intensifying. This is in spite of the increase in shear. So even if Sam was indeed 125 kts at the time of recon, it could very well be at least 130 kts now.

This loop illustrates the difference nicely: 23:58z is when recon made the last center pass.
Image

Also, you can see that Sam had just started rebuilding its CDO in the NW quad when recon made the last SE-NW pass and found high SFMR in the NW quad. I can't help but wonder if Sam was picking up wind speed during recon and they would have found higher FL winds if it went into the NE quad and not NW (this might explain why SFMR was much higher than FL winds in the NW quad?). That's just me and I'm probably wrong as an amateur, though.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1066 Postby NotoSans » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:49 pm

bob rulz wrote:Because a storm's pressure doesn't determine the amount of damage it does.


One could reasonably argue that storm surge, which is also damage brought by storm, correlates stronger with MSLP.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1067 Postby wxman57 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:59 pm

When discussing the central pressure vs. wind relationship of a tropical cyclone, the gradient has to be considered. A small hurricane with a pressure in the low 940s will have a much tighter pressure gradient than a larger hurricane, and much stronger winds than a large hurricane with the same central pressure. Consider tornadoes - the central pressure of a 200+ mph tornado may be only 50 mb lower than the environmental pressure, but it has a very tight pressure gradient. That's why the central pressure isn't a good way to estimate surface winds.

Vertical profiles are certainly not standard in TCs. I remember that Mitch in 1998 had stronger winds near the surface than aloft. Typically, a TCs strongest winds are at around 1500 ft above the surface. SFMR does not measure 1-min winds, it measures wind speeds closer to gusts than 1-min averages. Dropsondes, similarly, don't measure a 1-min average. In the case of Sam, I figured the NHC would go with 125 kts, and they did. Is that correct? Maybe, maybe not. In the end, it doesn't really matter if they go with 125 kts or 135 kts, as it's staying out to sea. The NHC could elect to up the winds in the post-storm analysis next spring.

On another note, with cold fronts now making their way across the Gulf, the jet stream is now causing very high shear across much of the Gulf. I think that the season is over for the FL Panhandle through Texas. The Florida Peninsula is still not in the clear, even into November. Glad to see that this October & November will not likely be a repeat of the 2020 season. I still have 5 more comp days to take. Will take next Thu/Fri off again. Only 197.5 overtime hours this season as compared to 360 OT hours last season.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1068 Postby WiscoWx02 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:14 pm

Teban54 wrote:All the debates aside, Sam looks better now than when recon was in the storm, and appears to be at least holding steady if not still slowly intensifying. This is in spite of the increase in shear. So even if Sam was indeed 125 kts at the time of recon, it could very well be at least 130 kts now.

This loop illustrates the difference nicely: 23:58z is when recon made the last center pass.
https://i.ibb.co/sbr1LcV/e3e1315e-deae- ... d71757.gif

Also, you can see that Sam had just started rebuilding its CDO in the NW quad when recon made the last SE-NW pass and found high SFMR in the NW quad. I can't help but wonder if Sam was picking up wind speed during recon and they would have found higher FL winds if it went into the NE quad and not NW (this might explain why SFMR was much higher than FL winds in the NW quad?). That's just me and I'm probably wrong as an amateur, though.


Yeah I am certainly wondering that too. Bet it is stronger, maybe approaching how strong it was earlier cause I'm sure winds drops a smidge after recon left given the asymmetry that become more apparent. Since this will not be impacting land anytime soon, I have no guilt in saying I hope this thing keeps at it for several days cause I wanna see those ACE units crank! Already generated almost 9 units and around for at least 7-8 more days.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1069 Postby Yellow Evan » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:33 pm

NotoSans wrote:I think the main reason why NHC decided to discard the higher SFMR and dropsonde winds is that they are not recorded in the right front quadrant, where the maximum winds tend to locate. This lends credence to NHC’s claim that these winds are more associated with mesovortices, rather than the overall circulation.

This is not the first time NHC adopts this line of reasoning. Felix’s 162kt SMFR and dropsonde data were rejected for similar reason.


RFQ for a leftward moving system is NW in theory.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1070 Postby Yellow Evan » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:40 pm

Image

CDO becoming more organized. Westerly shear hindering the storm earlier has subsided.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1071 Postby WiscoWx02 » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:42 pm

Yellow Evan wrote:Image

CDO becoming more organized. Westerly shear hindering the storm earlier has subsided.


Sam is definitely making a run at category 5 intensity again....my God :double:
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Re: RE: Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1072 Postby Woofde » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:53 pm

wxman57 wrote:When discussing the central pressure vs. wind relationship of a tropical cyclone, the gradient has to be considered. A small hurricane with a pressure in the low 940s will have a much tighter pressure gradient than a larger hurricane, and much stronger winds than a large hurricane with the same central pressure. Consider tornadoes - the central pressure of a 200+ mph tornado may be only 50 mb lower than the environmental pressure, but it has a very tight pressure gradient. That's why the central pressure isn't a good way to estimate surface winds.

Vertical profiles are certainly not standard in TCs. I remember that Mitch in 1998 had stronger winds near the surface than aloft. Typically, a TCs strongest winds are at around 1500 ft above the surface. SFMR does not measure 1-min winds, it measures wind speeds closer to gusts than 1-min averages. Dropsondes, similarly, don't measure a 1-min average. In the case of Sam, I figured the NHC would go with 125 kts, and they did. Is that correct? Maybe, maybe not. In the end, it doesn't really matter if they go with 125 kts or 135 kts, as it's staying out to sea. The NHC could elect to up the winds in the post-storm analysis next spring.

On another note, with cold fronts now making their way across the Gulf, the jet stream is now causing very high shear across much of the Gulf. I think that the season is over for the FL Panhandle through Texas. The Florida Peninsula is still not in the clear, even into November. Glad to see that this October & November will not likely be a repeat of the 2020 season. I still have 5 more comp days to take. Will take next Thu/Fri off again. Only 197.5 overtime hours this season as compared to 360 OT hours last season.
That's a very well written good counter point. Thanks for the information.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1073 Postby Teban54 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:13 am

Image
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1074 Postby Yellow Evan » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:16 am

Image

Very close to T7.0 again. W a little thin on the W and E not fully smooth.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1075 Postby Yellow Evan » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:39 am

Image

T6.5.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1076 Postby sikkar » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:46 am

When is next recon? Hopefully they don't miss the second peak.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1077 Postby cheezyWXguy » Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:47 am


I noticed that the 5 min imagery seems to be a bit behind at the moment. The 1min imagery shows an impressive band of colder cloud tops trying to wrap that would probably register as cmg.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1078 Postby skyline385 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:02 am

That core looks unstable, seems to be wobbling a fair bit. Guessing it wont hold its peak intensity until next recon...
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1079 Postby Yellow Evan » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:33 am

TXNT24 KNES 260558
TCSNTL

A. 18L (SAM)

B. 26/0530Z

C. 13.7N

D. 49.4W

E. ONE/GOES-E

F. T6.5/6.5

G. IR/EIR/SWIR

H. REMARKS...WMG EYE SURROUNDED BY B AND EMBEDDED IN B RESULTS IN AN E#
OF 5.5 WITH AN EADJ OF +1.0 FOR A DT OF 6.5. MET=6.5 AND PT=6.0. FT IS
BASED ON DT.


I. ADDL POSITIONS

NIL


...KONON


Great fix.
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Re: ATL: SAM - Hurricane - Discussion

#1080 Postby Yellow Evan » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:39 am

Image

W fading but holding steady at T6.5.
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