Could you live on this income?

[Amanzi]

Well Jen, I am no expert on the tax system here, but what I do know, is that nearly every decent person here in the USA does pay tax, hence your kids get free education (some may say it is bad education blah blah blah) BUT, every kid gets a chance to learn to read and write, oh and get free bussing as well. In South Africa there are school fees for everyone, NO free busses and each child has to purchase the uniform for that school. My parents had to decide some months if we could pay school fees or eat the next week! I was not allowed to go to my prom becuase my school fees had not been paid. The US has some kind of medicaid assistance (bash it all you like, but there is some kind of help)! NONE in South Africa! There are programs like WIC here to help children with food. Food stamps will help you out if you really need them, TANIF as well to help those really in need. My parents are so poor they have been HOMELESS... literally, and have had not one scrap of food for days at a time and have lived basically on water, There is NO help for them from the government. If South Africans stopped dodging the tax man and the government stopped it's coruption things could get a bit better!!!!! My husband and I have paid taxes here and I do not begrudge one cent of that money, we even paid into social security and we are leaving and will not see one cent of that Those taxes are used in my humble opinion to strengthen communities and keep the USA as a first world country. Fair enough Im sure this system upsets some and is not perfect, but it is better than NO system at all.

[Amanzi]

Bronnie. We grow so accustomed to our lifestyles that sometimes we don't really know what we can live with and live without.

I've worked hard over the years; we've worked hard. And we see our cell phones and computers as needs, not wants.

I look at those numbers you show us...and try to put it in perspective of what you will be facing back in South Africa, and it's hard to imagine a life of any substance there with those kinds of wages.

Were you teaching ballet or dance when you were there before? Or was that on a volunteer basis?

The whole range of history, class, and race issues that surround that country make it both a wonderful place of opportunity and a disheartening one if you cannot grow...and your children can not thrive.

You are among the strongest and most faithful of His followers. As your family's chapter closes in this country, I just know a new one, with plenty of positives, will begin anew in South Africa.

It is good that you are looking at the realities that you will face, however, in advance of your arrival back in that country.

Steve

Steve, unfortunately our needs have been obscured over the years, and many find it hard to find a definant line between a want and a need. As I have mentioned before, I have been in a situation watching my parents not having there real needs met. That line of true needs has become very clear to me. I know they need a roof over there heads, I know they need food, I know they need medical help, contact with others, love from others. There situation has been a true eye opener to me, and I must say it has made me appreciate every moressel of food I put in my mouth and I will NEVER complain about how small my house is, or that I dont have a fridge that is as good as the neighbours. Truley I have sat in a resturant and looked at a piece of steak and could not eat it, because I know my parents have nothing to eat at all. Im stronger for it because material wants when they are recieved are just blessings, frosting on the cup cake so to speak.
As far as making a life of substance for ourselves, well, there will be obstacles that is for sure, but I know just being with my family again means more than I can begin to describe. It is nerving knowing what I am going into, but I can only trust in the Lord to guide us and bless us as He sees fit. We are not affraid of hard work, and we will try our best to give our kids what we can. I know they would have had more material things here and more opportunities in the USA, as Meso mentioned there is a lot of descrimination for advancement, even in sporting world. I think this is the most heart breaking thing for me to have to face, things are not judged by merrit, as they should be. I have been handed this fate and I will through Gods grace make the very best of it for my family.

To answer your question, I was teaching ballet part-time for a "stipend" I have been keeping my antennae out and getting a feel for opening my own business, and if it is Gods will, it will prosper.

God bless you Steve... you wonderful man you!!!!!

[Amanzi]

Yup, It's harsh stuff here in South Africa... My mom is currently unemployed so it's harder... All jobs pay really little.. A full day job at some estate agencies only earn about R3000 (divide by 6.7 for US $).. really want to move out of here..
Also now with the new goverment.. Some jobs can only be given to black people... aswell as the sports teams, they are looking past skill and onto race, this is not making people equal but rather damaging the economy for "providing chances" In my opinion qualifications has more of a factor than the colour of ones skin.

Thought I'd write some of the prices on things... (divide by 6.7 for US $)..

Average car (new) :: R 110 000
Suburban 4 bedroom House :: R800 000
DSL internet connection (512k with 3 gig cap) :: R 800 p/m (Blame Telkom for that)
Cell phone (Motorola V600) :: R2500

Thanks so much for replying to this thread!!!!!!!! To be honest I am apprehensive about having to come back. You as a SAer, know how hard it is to even get out of there, let alone fight immigration to get working visas. I have been gone for going on 5 years now.. So im guessing things have changed big time.

You know what Im going to miss here... the freedom. Hunny, there are NO BURGLAR GAURDS on ANY of my windows, I have NO trelly doors and my car still has it's cd player and NO ALARM!!!!!!!! It is going to be hard getting used to having to live in a "prison" again. My advice to you, if you can get out... DO IT!!!!!! Don't get me wrong, my roots are firmly planted in South Africa and I miss it like crazy (trust me if you leave you will miss it as well)!

Dont mention Telkom... PLEASE! (for you americans, there is only ONE telephone company in South Africa and they can charge what they like... and they do!)

Guess I will just have to face the kuk ... lekker ne!!!

[azskyman]

Bron,

Your comments remind me of when I returned from Vietnam in December of 1970. Hot water for the first time in a year. First toilet in a year. First time driving anything in a year. First time for so many things.

I vowed I would do two things.

First, I swore I would never ever complain about all the things I had taken for granted before I left.

Second, I promised to try to say something nice, do something good, encourage someone, help someone, at least once each day for the rest of my life.

I haven't always managed to do those things, but they are never far from my mind.

This is a wonderful country which, for all its faults, can teach a lot of great lessons if you keep your eyes, ears, and heart open.

Your move is just chapter three in a whole book still ahead of you. A future chapter may find you back here to stay!

PS...I'm a big fan of your faith, you know. Not often does it show itself so strong in such a young spirit.

[Amanzi]

Steve you have a wonderful philosophy... I think I may just adopt it as my own.

I think with me it is not the case of a young spirit... but... and old soul in a young body!! [/list]

[Meso]

Wow, I had no Idea you were orginally from South Africa. Weird seeing someone from here on a weather forum ( as you know we don't get too much severe weather and I am the odd "weather freak" ).. Where about are you from ? I am located about 50 km from Cape Town in the Suburb Somerset West..

Even though it is still not the best for me here I can honestly say I have it A LOT better than millions of others living here.

I am contemplating leaving in 2 years or so. I finish matric this year and then plan on either doing 2 or 3 years college and then hopefully moving I will miss it though, if I would love to stay living here, if the financial and crime factors were better.. ( Oh and of course if there were more good bands

[JenBayles]

Explain to me how my standard of living is better when the federal government picks pocket of 30% of my income every year and gives it to someone else? Not to mention sales tax, gas tax, state tax and local tax...

The average American probably pays a grand total of ~40% in the form of taxes of some sort or another. I'm not saying this number shouldn't be lower. Everyone knows that bureaucracy breeds inefficiency.

However, not all of that ~40% goes to "someone else". For that 40% you receive education, roads, military protection, law enforcement, fire protection, unemployment insurance, and thousands of other little things that you probably never notice in your daily life. We never notice those things because they're taken care of.

All of these things are necessary for the vast majority of residents of a nation to move beyond basic subsistence. This is why most "developing" countries never seem to actually develop. Without a basic stable and secure infrastructure development is absolutely impossible.

There are many nations to choose from with very low or nonexistent taxes. I doubt you'd want to live in any of them.

Yes, all those things you mentioned need to be paid for, I'll never argue that point. However, when the vast majority of my taxes go to social spending programs nicely bundled into something called "Health and Human Services", I get a little upset. I realize there are people in this country who genuinely need assistance, and I have no problem helping them out. But honestly, how long can the producers of this country continue shouldering such a tax burden that only seems to increase with every passing administration?

http://www.federalbudget.com/

[gtalum]

Health and Human Services is the biggest category, but it is not "the vast majority" or even a majority of the federal budget. Besides welfare, which I agree should be cut, HHS includes things like the CDC and general medical research, things which need to be done. It also funds government-guaranteed student loans and FHA housing, things that are technically "welfare" but which benefit everyone.

[Amanzi]

Wow, I had no Idea you were orginally from South Africa. Weird seeing someone from here on a weather forum ( as you know we don't get too much severe weather and I am the odd "weather freak" ).. Where about are you from ? I am located about 50 km from Cape Town in the Suburb Somerset West..

Even though it is still not the best for me here I can honestly say I have it A LOT better than millions of others living here.

I am contemplating leaving in 2 years or so. I finish matric this year and then plan on either doing 2 or 3 years college and then hopefully moving I will miss it though, if I would love to stay living here, if the financial and crime factors were better.. ( Oh and of course if there were more good bands

LOL... yup Im from Durban North actually, lived there for 20 years. I have been to Somerset West actually, my brother lives in Melkbos.. Its very pretty, but Cape Town is just toooo rainy for me and windy. Give me good ol Durbs humidity and Im happy I was never actually a weather freak untill I moved here to florida, if you love severe weather and thunderstorms this is the state for you!!!!!!!!

It will be really good for you to get out of SA, even if it is not permenant, just to see how the real world lives..lol. A suggestion, if you have a SA passport dont even bother to try get in here. Being a single male will make it almost impossible for you. I have a guy friend who has tried over 10 times to get just a visitor visa without sucess. Try London... HUGE bunch of SAers over there, including about 80% of my matric class!