Illegals sue, win Arizona ranch

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gtalum
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#21 Postby gtalum » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:04 am

GalvestonDuck wrote:"If they're flight risks..." *snicker* Sorry...couldn't help but laugh, imagining an illegal alien (forget the court saying it...HE would know that he's illegal) making a run for the border.


Okay, poor choice of words on my part. :D

It would be likely, though, for an illegal immigrant to go into hiding if allowed out on bail. We should have some sort of expedited system for suspected illegals, so they can be tried very quickly after arrest and either be released (if not guilty) or deported within days of arrest.

How is it vigilantism to protect one's home and property?


From the article:

Nethercott was a member of the group Ranch Rescue, which works to protect private property along the southern U.S. border. In March 2003 he was accused of pistol-whipping Edwin Alfredo Mancia Gonzales, 26, at a
Hebbronville, Texas, ranch near the Mexico border.


He wasn't protecting his property. He pistol-whipped Gonzales at someone else's ranch. The story also doesn't make it clear whether Gonzales was a threat. Generally, it's only considered self-defense if the suspected perp directly and immediately threatens you physically or if he actually enters your home.
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#22 Postby Kelarie » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:07 am

GalvestonDuck wrote:
gtalum wrote:
GalvestonDuck wrote:What part of "illegal" in "illegal immigrant" isn't clear? Does the name Angel Maturino Resendez ring a bell?


No offense, but I don't want some trigger-happy redneck deciding whether people are illegal immigrants or not.

We give the same basic human rights to everyone in this country, including the right to a trial and the right to be safe from bodily harm. To do less would be truly unAmerican.


I'm pretty sure ICE is made up of more than trigger-happy rednecks. Same for the TSA.

My point again is that they were illegal. Therefore, they have no Constitutional rights as Americans.

As far as this fellow goes, it doesn't matter if they were illegal or not...they were a threat and, as you said, he has the right to be safe from bodily harm.


Nicely said. I totally agree. They have NO rights. They were trespassing on his property. If someone trespasses on my property, I have the right to defend it, and with deadly force if needed.

I have a big problem with illegals coming across the borders, taking everything from this system and giving very little back. Now they are taking our land. (I understand this is ironic since that is what our forefathers did it to the American Indians). What is next? Your house? My house? Not out of the reason.

And NOTHING is being done about the issue Vincent Bush has opened the borders and WILL DO NOTHING to shut them. He will not provide the money or personnel to do what it takes to shut them.

This is a sore subject with me. I see how the system is being abused, and nothing is being done and we are told it is okay. :grr:
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#23 Postby gtalum » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:22 am

Kelarie wrote:Nicely said. I totally agree. They have NO rights.


they DO have rights. Teh US constitution makes no exception for immigrants, illegal or otherwise. If it does, please point out the passage that makes that distinction.

They were trespassing on his property.


they were trespassing on someone else's property.

If someone trespasses on my property, I have the right to defend it, and with deadly force if needed.


Unless they threaten you physically, you'll end up in prison for that. Would you really pistol-whip or shoot someone for wlaking across your yard?
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#24 Postby gtalum » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:27 am

Take a look at the Bill of Rights:

http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDERAL/usconst/amend.html

Specifically, look at the fourth Amendment:

Amendment IV.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


That's "people". Not resident, citizens, or legal immigrants. "People".

and the Fifth:

Amendment V.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Again, the subject is "person". Nothing about legality of residence or citizenship. The forefathers put a big burden on us by requiring us to treat all people with their constitutional rights. We should deport illegal aliens, but only after they receive their due process guaranteed by teh 4th and 5th amendments. To make exceptions for them only makes it easier to make eceptions for others.[/url]
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#25 Postby Kelarie » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:40 am

they DO have rights. Teh US constitution makes no exception for immigrants, illegal or otherwise. If it does, please point out the passage that makes that distinction.

They do have rights - they have the right to burden our hosiptals, our schools, and now the justice system. If a illegal immigrant comes onto your land, if you touch him, better be careful he might sue you and take whatever you have. That will be the latest.

They were trespassing on his property.


they were trespassing on someone else's property. Point

If someone trespasses on my property, I have the right to defend it, and with deadly force if needed.


Unless they threaten you physically, you'll end up in prison for that. Would you really pistol-whip or shoot someone for wlaking across your yard?[/quote]

Maybe this person was tired of people taking down his fences and having his cows scattered? Maybe he was tired of living in fear of coyotes (people bringing across illegals), who are armed and probably wouldn't give a second thought of killing someone to bring across their cargos?

Don't be meladramatic. No, I wouldn't shoot or pistol-whip someone for walking across my yard, but if my life was in danger or perceived danger, that is another story.
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#26 Postby gtalum » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:45 am

Kelarie wrote:They do have rights - they have the right to burden our hosiptals, our schools, and now the justice system.


DO you have any eviudence that this actually happens? I hear it stated as fact, but have never seen supporting evidence. That said, they pay sales and property taxes, and those taxes pay for local services that people generally use.


If a illegal immigrant comes onto your land, if you touch him, better be careful he might sue you and take whatever you have. That will be the latest.


The same risk holds true for anyone, be they illegal alien or US citizen. My wife's an attorney, I'll take that chance.
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#27 Postby Kelarie » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:56 am

gtalum wrote:
Kelarie wrote:They do have rights - they have the right to burden our hosiptals, our schools, and now the justice system.


DO you have any eviudence that this actually happens? I hear it stated as fact, but have never seen supporting evidence. That said, they pay sales and property taxes, and those taxes pay for local services that people generally use.

Right, how many hosiptals have closed due to illegals? Near 200, last time I read. Burden our schools? School budgets are having to be double because everything has to be in English and Spainish. Most illegals do not own homes - therefore they do not pay property taxes so they do not pay for the services of the school systems.

Everything in Texas is printed in English and Spainish. I have to wonder how much that has to cost the government to do that. Another cost.
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#28 Postby GalvestonDuck » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:03 am

gtalum wrote:Take a look at the Bill of Rights:

http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDERAL/usconst/amend.html

Specifically, look at the fourth Amendment:

Amendment IV.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


That's "people". Not resident, citizens, or legal immigrants. "People".

and the Fifth:

Amendment V.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Again, the subject is "person". Nothing about legality of residence or citizenship. The forefathers put a big burden on us by requiring us to treat all people with their constitutional rights. We should deport illegal aliens, but only after they receive their due process guaranteed by teh 4th and 5th amendments. To make exceptions for them only makes it easier to make eceptions for others.[/url]


Maybe I'm stupid, but I always thought the Preamble addressed which "people."

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


Of course, by bringing that up, we're talking about history, government...and stuff that borders on politics.

I can't speak for Kelarie, Janice, wxcrazy, or gtalum, but I just want everyone out there who might be wondering - yes, I realize that we (especially me, as a mod) are bordering (pardon the pun) on a political arena type of discussion. However, as far as I can tell, it's remaining civil and not getting into the heated con-lib, Rep v. Dem type of mess. :)
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#29 Postby JenBayles » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:07 am

The cost of illegal immigration - Congressman Ted Poe, R-TX:

http://www.house.gov/poe/remarks/immigration71205.htm

THE COST OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION ON THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES -- (House of Representatives - July 12, 2005)
Mr. Speaker, I rise today to bring attention to the issue of illegal immigration that is perhaps the most important concern to my Texas constituents.

I want to address just one matter, the cost. Government and academic estimates indicate there are 9 to 11 million illegal people living in the United States. Immigration officials estimate that the illegal population grows by as many as 500,000 a year; some say 4,000 a day cross into Texas from their southern border.

Someone pays for this illegal activity, and that somebody is the American public, not the illegal immigrants. There is a tremendous strain on local and State communities because of unrestricted illegal immigration throughout Texas and the entire United States.

While it is the Federal Government's responsibility to control immigration, it is the people of the States and local communities that pay the cost. They are the victims of illegal immigration. Those Americans spend millions of tax dollars on education, health care, and criminal justice for those that are here illegally.

Donald Huddle, a Rice University economics professor, has done a study that estimated the cost that we pay for illegals in this country. This chart here shows that the American public pays approximately $32 billion a year for the cost of illegal immigrants, such as public education. It is about $5 billion Americans pay.

Social security, $3 billion. Medicaid, $3 billion. Total cost to American taxpayers, about $32 billion a year we pay the cost of illegal immigration. When this study was done, the population of illegals in the United States was about 5 million. Now the population has doubled, and the costs have more than doubled.

Besides these stunning costs, Americans have to pay for their own health care and their own education of their own kids. Many Americans cannot afford these costs for their own families, but they are made to pay the same costs for illegals.

Mr. Speaker, education, public safety and basic health care are the roles provided primarily by our States and local communities. U.S. taxpayer dollars on the local level are used to pay for these services. Yet these communities are continuing to absorb more and more demand for these services while the resources to provide them cannot keep up.

I would like to specifically point out some of the costs that citizens must provide: one, health care. Emergency rooms, the most expensive health care system, are used by illegal immigrants because of the compassion of Americans. We do not turn people down at these hospitals. If the immigrants do not pay, Americans pay.

Some trauma centers in urban areas have closed because they cannot absorb the costs to pay. People are in the system who do not contribute to it financially.

In Michigan, 23 criminal cases were filed alleging that pregnant women from Syria, Lebanon and Yemen flew into the United States, falsified information on Medicaid forms to cover those costs of delivering their babies, and then returned to their native countries within a few months. Americans paid for all of this criminal activity. Also, the quality of health care will diminish because those in the system are not paying their way.

Second, education. The Supreme Court ruled in 1982 that all kids in the United States would be provided a free education. This cost continues to rise due to the fact that Americans are paying for and educating kids illegally in the United States.

Local property taxes continue to rise. And the quality of education will suffer. Why? Because there are people receiving from the education system, but are not contributing to it financially. Those are people that are here illegally.

Just last year, California spent over $7 billion a year educating illegal immigrant children. Once again, our compassion for others is to the detriment of our own kids.

In the criminal justice system, where I was a judge in Harris County, over 20 percent of the people in jail were illegally in the United States. Americans provided those individuals a defense attorney, a court system, a trial, and they paid for the incarceration if those individuals were convicted.

Who pays for this? Americans. Americans always pay. Mr. Speaker, everybody wants to live in the United States, but not everybody can live here. We need rules that are fair, and people must respect our rule of law and our borders.

American taxpayers cannot afford to pay for those here illegally who use our health care facilities, our education systems, and go through the criminal justice system.

The failure of this Congress to act on correcting our broken immigration system trickles down to the communities which we all represent, especially those of us who represent border States. The American taxpayer is funding illegals, and we must put a stop to the problem sooner rather than later.

If we continue to offer free education, health care services and provide a criminal justice system, are we not encouraging more illegals to come to the United States?

This just ought not to be.
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#30 Postby gtalum » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:14 am

GalvestonDuck wrote:Maybe I'm stupid, but I always thought the Preamble addressed which "people."


I don't think you're stupid. Stupid people debate uncivilly. :)

That's an interesting angle I hadn't considered. I have to say I disagree with yoru assessment, though. IMHO "We the people of the United States" is in reference to the people who have recognized the rights which follow it. But in reaidng the entire COnstitution, it seems "we th epeopel" are not limiting the constitution to just themselves. But I could be wrong. I always liek to err on the side of rights, though. It wouldn't be that complicated of a matter to speedily deal with immigration claims in court.

I might even agree that illegal immigrants deserve only a quick deportation and nothing more. The problem, however, is in determining who is indeed "illegal". In our country you are innocent until proven guilty. That seems to further support my rapid trial and deportation solution. It would be a shame if we started questioning every hispanic in the US as to the legality of thei rimmigration status.
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#31 Postby gtalum » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:16 am

jenBayles, the problem with that congressman's analysis is that he has failed to account for the tax dollars that illegal aliens do contribute. Schools and hospitals are generally paid for with property and sales taxes. Illegals in the US pay those taxes every bit a smuch as we do.

As for social security, I'm not aware of any illegals receiving SS benefits.
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#32 Postby Kelarie » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:32 am

gtalum wrote:jenBayles, the problem with that congressman's analysis is that he has failed to account for the tax dollars that illegal aliens do contribute. Schools and hospitals are generally paid for with property and sales taxes. Illegals in the US pay those taxes every bit a smuch as we do.

As for social security, I'm not aware of any illegals receiving SS benefits.


Gtalum, they don't own homes, so they don't pay property taxes. So that part of your arguement is invalid. Yes, they pay sales tax, but when I get hit for almost $3000 in property taxes and have no kids, it nearly kills me, because I know that it is not going to be use to educate the children that need it. It is going to teach children that are ESL kids. Alot of those children qualify for low income and are fed by the school districts. Illegals are a burden on the system. From when the border patrol is searching for them all hours of the day to when we are feeding them, educating them and medicating them.

Can you not even admit that? As to the SS benefits, they don't need those, they get them free from the state. Low income or welfare.[/list]
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#33 Postby gtalum » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:38 am

Kelarie wrote:Gtalum, they don't own homes, so they don't pay property taxes.


But they pay rent to people who pay property taxes. Renters pay property taxes, just not directly. Sorry to break that to you.

Yes, they pay sales tax, but when I get hit for almost $3000 in property taxes and have no kids, it nearly kills me, because I know that it is not going to be use to educate the children that need it.


Yoru argument is invalid. See above. Complain to your local authorities and vote them out of office if you pay too much property tax.

It is going to teach children that are ESL kids. Alot of those children qualify for low income and are fed by the school districts. Illegals are a burden on the system. From when the border patrol is searching for them all hours of the day to when we are feeding them, educating them and medicating them.


Again, complain to your local authorities and vote them out of office if they aren't doing their jobs properly.
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#34 Postby JenBayles » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:37 pm

Sure, if illegals rent a house, that rent covers the property taxes on that one dwelling. But when you have multiple families living in what are supposed to be single family dwellings, that doesn't exactly cover the cost of educating the all children that live in them. I see it every day here in Houston.
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#35 Postby JenBayles » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:03 pm

Interesting article clarifying rights, or lack thereof, held by illegals:

http://slate.msn.com/id/1008367/

Do Noncitizens Have Constitutional Rights?
Chris Suellentrop
Posted Thursday, Sept. 27, 2001, at 2:47 PM PT


Attorney General John Ashcroft wants the power to lock up immigrants suspected of terrorism and hold them indefinitely. Wouldn't this violate the Constitution?

Not necessarily. True, the Bill of Rights applies to everyone, even illegal immigrants. So an immigrant, legal or illegal, prosecuted under the criminal code has the right to due process, a speedy and public trial, and other rights protected by the Fifth and Sixth Amendments. This fact sheet from the National Lawyers Guild outlines a host of rights afforded to immigrants and citizens alike. (There are a few rights reserved for citizens. Among them are the right to vote, the right to hold most federal jobs, and the right to run for political office.)


Click above link for the remainder of the article. Just posting an exerpt for the sake of brevity.
:D
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#36 Postby BEER980 » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:10 pm

gtalum you are aware that the "undocumented workers" send back money to family in Mexico. That is money not spent here but they use it to live on or pay to a coyote. I think the last estimate was one Billion dollars a year. Sure let the BP round them up if they don't shoot the agents like it is starting to occur. Just remember that the leagal system releases them due to no space for holding until a trial. Here again 85% of these "guest workers" never show for a court date. These fine people from Mexico make up 1/3 of the prison population here. The OTM is growing to 119,000 this year and that is a bigger problem as well.

Can anyone of you who are in favor of this tell me what would happen to an American if they crossed into Mexico and were attacked in the same manner as these two were? Well at least they now have a 70 acre refuge for any of their friends if they decide to cross in the same area. I bet the road signs are going up south of the ranch directing them to the new freedom ranch. Not to worry though, the borders are going to dissapear in 5 years if we make it that long.
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GO AWAY ILLEGALS

#37 Postby Geomagnetic Man » Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:34 pm

I am with Kelarie 100% on this thing. Illegals should have NO RIGHTS at all. They crowd us, they take jobs, they take our medical, its not right. They need to be pushed back where they BELONG. They don't belong here. I get hurt, and go into a hospital to get treated. I give them my address, and all my info, and I get a FAT BILL! Where as an illegal can just say they are illegal and get FREE medical!! WTF is that all about!!!???? huh?, I mean seriously think about it. Something has to be done, even if I have to join the citizen border patrol thing out there in Arizona, and shoot them down myself.

Another thing. Jobs. I am sick and tired of seeing jobs seeing MUST be bilingual. I DONT THINK SO. My current job said that, and I went straight into the managers office, and told him my mind loudly, and proudly. That we, the Americans are not, and will not be treated the minorities. We are the supreme again the illegals, and it will stay that way, even if I have to run for president one day, and make it so. Heck the only thing I think they are good for is HARD LABOR. Heck, i've used them in hard labor, and paid very little, but enough for them to survive on for that week. They don't deserve that minimum wage crap, when most of our money is sent into Mexico to begin with. 3 to 4 bucks an hr is good enough for them. Anyway, im done ranting now, those are my feelings against these imposters.

GEO
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#38 Postby BEER980 » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:24 pm

I need to make a correction on my dollar fact as I have learned it was incorrect. It was much larger then I quoted and here it is.
Already, one in eight adults born in Mexico now lives in the US. And the Mexican economy is kept afloat partially by an estimated $16 billion sent back by immigrants to relatives.

Source
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#39 Postby Aslkahuna » Fri Aug 26, 2005 8:47 pm

In fact, the money sent back to Mexico by illegals (and legals) is greater than the oil revenues they get from PEMEX.

Steve
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#40 Postby gtalum » Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:13 am

I am with Kelarie 100% on this thing. Illegals should have NO RIGHTS at all.


Well yopu're wrong there. They have basic human rights, because our constitution guarantees everyone that. It's because our country is better than others. :)

They crowd us, they take jobs, they take our medical, its not right. They need to be pushed back where they BELONG. They don't belong here. I get hurt, and go into a hospital to get treated. I give them my address, and all my info, and I get a FAT BILL! Where as an illegal can just say they are illegal and get FREE medical!! WTF is that all about!!!????


I have news for you. They get a big fat bill too. Just like them, you can choose not to pay yoru emergency room bill, and there's nothing the hospital can really do to you. We all have free ER care if we need it.

I mean seriously think about it. Something has to be done, even if I have to join the citizen border patrol thing out there in Arizona, and shoot them down myself.


Go ahead then.

Another thing. Jobs. I am sick and tired of seeing jobs seeing MUST be bilingual. I DONT THINK SO. My current job said that, and I went straight into the managers office, and told him my mind loudly, and proudly. That we, the Americans are not, and will not be treated the minorities.


LOL! If yout old me that I'd have fired you on the spot. I require my front line peopel to know spanish and english. I'm not going to turn away business just because my customer can't speak english. I want to make money.

We are the supreme again the illegals,


That sounds an awful lot like something that a famous german leader once said.

and it will stay that way, even if I have to run for president one day, and make it so.


I suggets you do that. In the meantime, the trend is to maike it easier to immigrate here, as it should be.

Heck the only thing I think they are good for is HARD LABOR. Heck, i've used them in hard labor, and paid very little, but enough for them to survive on for that week. They don't deserve that minimum wage crap, when most of our money is sent into Mexico to begin with. 3 to 4 bucks an hr is good enough for them. Anyway, im done ranting now, those are my feelings against these imposters.


:lol:

SO you thinkt hey're scum, and shouldn't be here, but you're willing to support them by hiring them. DO you know the definition of the word "hypocrisy"?

I'ts so nice of you to come clean and let us know that your true objection to "illegals" is based in racism rather than the legality of their immigration status. :)
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