Katrina Storm Surge in Biloxi "Worse than Camille"

[BReb]

http://mb11.scout.com/fmississippistate ... 1502.topic

Just found out my home has been covered by the storm surge, which is on the back bay. Our house recieved NO water during Camille, so this says alot. The last contact I had with my family members is that my father (former 1970-74 MSU kicker), my brother, and gradfather were waiting on a police boat to rescue them. I assume my house is gone. Please keep them in your prayers. I know they will be okay, they are fighters!

Some other info I have recieved:

Mary Mahoney's had waves crashing in on thier second floor, forcing my friends into the third level.

Bombay Bicycle Club is nothing more than a slab.

Hard Rock has lost much of it's structure.

Many homes on the beach are slabs.

Water levels rose over 25 feet in many areas.

Treasure Bay has broken from it's moorings, nothing else is known about it.

Many boats have washed on shore, destroying anything in their path.

This storm is WORSE than Camille as far as destruction. There is much more on the coast now to destroy than in 1969. Prayers are needed very much!

- end of quote -

This is an amazing post- here is a house that stood during the time of Camille yet was not touched. And Camille came ashore at Pass Christian, MS, rather than Louisiana. There are obviously dynamics invovled with storm surge that have nothing to do with wind speed at landfall- Camille had much stronger winds at landfall.

[Brent]

I am just speechless.

[cajungal]

I am so worried now. I know the area very well. The MS coast being only a 2 hour drive away was like a second home to me. My family lives there and I am so thankful that they evacuated. They are pretty well elevated on a hill in Kiln outside Picayune. But, with a surge that high, you just never know. They only been in their house in Picayune for less than a year. Just moved there from Long Beach. No telling when they will even be allowed home to inspect the damage.

[AlabamaDave]

There are obviously dynamics invovled with storm surge that have nothing to do with wind speed at landfall- Camille had much stronger winds at landfall.

Yes, I thought surge developed due to the low pressure as well as the winds. The low pressure allows the water to dome up. This storm had a Category 5-level pressure, even if winds were "down" (??? why are people acting like the winds weren't high - ???) by the time the storm reached the MS-LA state line.

[BReb]

Another thing that stuns me is that Biloxi isn't even the worst-hit area- it is 30 miles or so east of Hancock County (home of Bay St. Louis, Waveland and Pass Christian) which is where the eastern eyewall hit.

I think it's worthy of inquiry whether there is something about the Mississippi gulf coast that excacerbates storm surges. Plus, is there some reason why the two most devastating blows ever on the northern Gulf Coast both hit Hancock County, Mississippi? That's quite a coincidence.

I've seen no reports from Hancock County- I wonder if there is anything there at all.

[x-y-no]

There are obviously dynamics invovled with storm surge that have nothing to do with wind speed at landfall- Camille had much stronger winds at landfall.

Yes, I thought surge developed due to the low pressure as well as the winds. The low pressure allows the water to dome up. This storm had a Category 5-level pressure, even if winds were "down" (??? why are people acting like the winds weren't high - ???) by the time the storm reached the MS-LA state line.

Pressure accounts for only a small part of the storm surge - maybe 8 to 10 inches in a storm of this depth.

[superfly]

There are obviously dynamics invovled with storm surge that have nothing to do with wind speed at landfall- Camille had much stronger winds at landfall.

Yes, I thought surge developed due to the low pressure as well as the winds. The low pressure allows the water to dome up. This storm had a Category 5-level pressure, even if winds were "down" (??? why are people acting like the winds weren't high - ???) by the time the storm reached the MS-LA state line.

Pressure accounts for only a small part of the storm surge - maybe 8 to 10 inches in a storm of this depth.

Pro-met on another site said pressure accounts for most of the surge height and windspeed accounts for most of wave height.

[x-y-no]

There are obviously dynamics invovled with storm surge that have nothing to do with wind speed at landfall- Camille had much stronger winds at landfall.

Yes, I thought surge developed due to the low pressure as well as the winds. The low pressure allows the water to dome up. This storm had a Category 5-level pressure, even if winds were "down" (??? why are people acting like the winds weren't high - ???) by the time the storm reached the MS-LA state line.

Pressure accounts for only a small part of the storm surge - maybe 8 to 10 inches in a storm of this depth.

Pro-met on another site said pressure accounts for most of the surge height and windspeed accounts for most of wave height.

Well, he's wrong.

A 900mb storm is 100 mb lower than standard SLP, which is just under 3 inches mercury. That's equal to just under 3 feet of water.

So a 900mb storm which sat absolutely still for a sufficiently long time (say a day or more) in a 1 bar environment would raise the water level at its center by 3 feet. But this storm was moving at 15mph, thus the dome of water never builds up to its theoretical maximum. In practice, something under a foot is the real portion of surge attributable to pressure.

[MBismyPlayground]

BReb,
With so much destruction, you sound so calm, and half way sane I know I would have already lost my mind. Prayers go out to you and your family. Please stay safe.

[JtSmarts]

Gov stated the surge was around 35 feet, that gives some credence to Jim Cantore's account.

[artist]

I think what people may be forgetting is the size of this storm - it was much larger than Camille, even though the winds may not have been quite as high - the size would have carried mcuh more water in with it - at least that would be my take on it.

[x-y-no]

I think what people may be forgetting is the size of this storm - it was much larger than Camille, even though the winds may not have been quite as high - the size would have carried mcuh more water in with it - at least that would be my take on it.

Yes, but because of the large wind field, not because of the low pressure.

[LaBreeze]

Not sure if I heard correctly, but the first three floors of Beau Rivage Casino were under water.

[milankovitch]

I think what people may be forgetting is the size of this storm - it was much larger than Camille, even though the winds may not have been quite as high - the size would have carried mcuh more water in with it - at least that would be my take on it.

That's been my thinking to: like at the beach in the sand there is a limit to how high you can pile dry sand given a certain base (a maxiumum steepness to the dome of water) if the base is larger the final height can be higher as well same with Ivan.

[Derek Ortt]

this is why the reanalysis is necessary.

there may be a good chance that Camielle was no where near the 190 m.p.h. indicated as it was based upon recon data 6-12 hours prior to landfall. We learned yesterday than even slight rises in pressure can cause a 25-30KT reduction in wind speed. It may very well be that this was as bad as Camielle, because it was as bad as Camielle

[Derek Ortt]

pressure can cause a couple of feet, but it is mainly wind and wave driven

[BReb]

"there may be a good chance that Camille was no where near the 190 m.p.h. indicated as it was based upon recon data 6-12 hours prior to landfall. "

Perhaps, but I recall seeing some old footage of Camille involving a sturdy-looking palm tree being bent over by winds the likes of which I've never seen in other Hurricane footage. The winds clearly much more powerful than the footage we saw today from Biloxi.

I suppose the most likely explanation is simply Katrina's size along with the fact that it was a strong category 5 close to shore. If you have a storm that size blowing at 175 mph 12 hours from landfall, I'm sure that's going to push a whole lot of water in front of it. All that water isn't going to just stop as soon as the hurricance weakens somewhat, any more than the tsunami waves stop after the initial force from an earthquake ceases.

[Derek Ortt]

Biloxi did not get the maximum winds today. You need to go to Pass Christian again to find the max winds, but there is no communication with that city as far as I know. Gulfport is a good second choice where reports are of total devastation (from Jim Cantore. He even said the tidal damage cannot be compared to anything he has ever seen)

[Hurricane_Apu]

Accepted intensity of Camille may be too high... but it also won't surprise me if this storm gets bumped up after besttrack (for both landfalls)...

[simplykristi]

Unbelieveable I am sad for people in LA/MS/AL.

Kristi