NO Mayor orders forced removal if necessary

[huricanwatcher]

-- New Orleans mayor issues order authorizing the forced removal of people refusing to leave the city.

Mayor Ray Nagin instructed all public safety officers "to compel the evacuation of all persons ... regardless of whether such persons are on private property or do not desire to leave," according to a written statement from his office.

The order did not apply to people in Algiers on the West Bank side of Orleans Parish.

Updated title from "CNN Breaking News" - mf_dolphin

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

That should of happen a week ago

[soonertwister]

I suspect a fairly high percentage of looters and other lawless persons among those who still remain. We can expect to see quite a few more shootings before the city is 99% emptied.

The gangsters don't want to leave because they are hoarding significantly valuable caches of stolen goods. They won't go peacefully.

[LSU2001]

Sooner, as much as it pains me to agree with you I must. Many of the holdouts are exactly as you descibe. However there has been local footage of elderly people clearly confused and dazed wandering about and still refusing to go. Insisting that the water will come down and they will be fine. One 80+ year old man was walking chest deep in the water when a military convoy came upon him. They asked what he was doing and he said he was looking for his wallet. The soldiers tried to convince the man to evacuate with them but he steadfastly refused saying that he would be fine. The last camera shot showed the old man standing in the chest high water as the convoy rolled away. This scene was so heartbreaking that my stomach was literaly churning. The sad fact is that there are many like him in the city and they are nearing the point of death. dementia and delierium are taking over and they are not making sensible choices. I hope and pray that Mr. Nagin's order is able to save some of these pitiful holdouts. As far as the others, they can try and battle it out with the 82nd airborn or the 2nd marines. I don't think their tactics will work as well with these ol boys as it did with the NOPD.
Sorry for rambling
Tim

[therealashe]

I saw an interview this am on Good Morning America, with a woman who was very upset at being forced out. She was insistant that she had enough food and water for 2 months. She didn't want to leave.

I think sooner is right, and that a portion of those left are those who have lots of stolen items they are protecting. I also think that there is a portion who are elderly or infirm, and need to be removed forceably if that is what it takes to protect them.

I don't know how I feel about those "regular" folks who just want to stay in their homes. I mean, I know I'd leave, but it is their home. <sigh> No easy answer I guess.

[Praxus]

Perhaps of some of the aholes inflicting violence on their fellow citizens
will meet up with some quick justice at the hands of the army.

But I feel sorry for old people etc who just want to stay with what they have.

[ohiostorm]

That should of happen a week ago

exactly!

[cancunkid]

Are they going to allow people to stay in the French Quarters? I ask because there was a bar open. Can't see anyone taking evacuation too serious in the FQ no water in the streets, a return of power, and a bar.

[Mac]

I don't know how I feel about those "regular" folks who just want to stay in their homes. I mean, I know I'd leave, but it is their home. <sigh> No easy answer I guess.

So how do you feel about helmet laws? Seatbelt laws? I mean, it's their life they're risking, right?

Well, kind of.

Maybe it's just your life we're talking about. I mean, perhaps you take a spill on your bike and split your mellon wide open on the concrete and get killed instantly. But then again, maybe you don't get killed right away. Maybe you just suffer a severe head injury and have to be transfered to the ICU, and placed on a ventilator. But after being there for a week, you're still unconscious with no signs of improvement.

Meanwhile, your insurance coverage is running dry. But the hospital doesn't drag your uninsured butt to the curb. They keep treating you...and the hospital, and tax payers, will be picking up the tab from here. And then a kid falls off his bike and hits his head. He's taken to the ER for treatment. The ER physician wants him to be admitted to the ICU and put on a ventilator. But there's a problem. There's no beds or ventilators in the ICU. You took the last one. The kids dies in the ER, because you didn't want to wear a helmet.

Of course, I'm being a little sensationalistic about this. But I work on a Pediatric Critical Care Unit, and we see these types of things happen all the time. There are patients who need to be admitted who aren't, either because we don't have a bed for them or because we lack the staffing or equipment to adequately care for them. And it's difficult to deal with when a bed is being taken up by a kid who got hurt because his parents neglected to make him wear a helmet when another kid, who got hit by a drunk driver, needs a bed.

These people that want to stay--yes, it's their home. But when they get in trouble or sick, are we then to just leave them there to die? Of course not. Rescue workers will risk their health--their very lives--to go in after them. These people will receive medical treatment that they otherwise wouldn't have needed, and resources will have been unnecessarily expended. And somebody else won't get the resources or care that they need.

When the decisions of the individual have potentially negative impacts upon others or society as a whole, the government has not only the right, but a moral duty to intervene.

[f5]

The school Buses should of been last resort not the Superdome which in my view was a very poor idea considering its one of the lowest points in the city.

[gabrielle01]

Have anybody considered that evacuees staying at Superdome and Convention Center as shelters of last resort instead of at their homes in 9th Ward likely saved their lives from flooding waters on Tuesday morning? Of course getting all of them out of New Orleans should have been first option.

[simplyme]

It's fine and dandy that the Mayor has issued such an order... however, General Honore has already said that he will NOT enforce such an order (CNN), he will not forcibly remove people from their homes. In order for this to actually happen, it will have to be done by local law enforcement.

[mf_dolphin]

It's fine and dandy that the Mayor has issued such an order... however, General Honore has already said that he will NOT enforce such an order (CNN), he will not forcibly remove people from their homes. In order for this to actually happen, it will have to be done by local law enforcement.

Since martial law was not requested by the Govenor of Louisiana the active dudty military cannot be used to enforce local or state law.

[blueeyes_austin]

Are they going to allow people to stay in the French Quarters? I ask because there was a bar open. Can't see anyone taking evacuation too serious in the FQ no water in the streets, a return of power, and a bar.

I'd be very surprised if they evacuate the Quarter.

[wxcrazytwo]

It's fine and dandy that the Mayor has issued such an order... however, General Honore has already said that he will NOT enforce such an order (CNN), he will not forcibly remove people from their homes. In order for this to actually happen, it will have to be done by local law enforcement.

Since martial law was not requested by the Govenor of Louisiana the active dudty military cannot be used to enforce local or state law.

MF, I don't think martial law has to be instituted to bring about the duties of the military. The President has waived the posse comitatus act and has allowed the army to assist and enforce local and state laws.

Posse Comitatus Act
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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This article is about a United States statute prohibiting the use of the armed forces for law enforcement. For the sheriff's powers of law enforcement at common law, see posse comitatus. For the terrorist organization, see The Posse Comitatus.
The Posse Comitatus Act is a federal law of the United States (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed in 1878, after the end of Reconstruction, and was intended to prohibit Federal troops from supervising elections in former Confederate states. It generally prohibits Federal military personnel and units of the United States National Guard under Federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The original act only referred to the Army, but the Air Force was added in 1956 and the Navy and Marine Corps have been included by a regulation of the Department of Defense. This law is mentioned whenever it appears that the Department of Defense is interfering in domestic disturbances.


There are a number of exceptions to the act. These include:

National Guard units while under the authority of the governor of a state;
Troops when used pursuant to the Federal authority to quell domestic violence as was the case during the 1992 Los Angeles riots;
The President of the United States can waive this law in an emergency;
In December 1981 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies—including the Coast Guard—especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews.
Under 18 USC 831, the Attorney General may request that the Secretary of Defense provide emergency assistance if civilian law enforcement is inadequate to address certain types of threat involving the release of nuclear materials, such as potential use of a Nuclear or Radiological weapon. Such assistance may be by any personnel under the authority of the Department of Defense, provided such assistance does not adversely affect US military preparedness.
The relevant legislation is as follows:

Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act
[/url]

[stormcrow]

Lesson from Andrew forgotten already. Armed soldiers (even without bullets) reduces violence looting and PANIC. They should have started arriving on Tuesday.

[mf_dolphin]

MF, I don't think martial law has to be instituted to bring about the duties of the military. The President has waived the posse comitatus act and has allowed the army to assist and enforce local and state laws.

Do you have a link to this? I truly haven't seen this if it's true.

[artist]

the Governor stated (according to the news) that she would not allow the troops to help with removal.

[wxcrazytwo]

MF, I don't think martial law has to be instituted to bring about the duties of the military. The President has waived the posse comitatus act and has allowed the army to assist and enforce local and state laws.

Do you have a link to this? I truly haven't seen this if it's true.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9117367/

I am still trying to find when he did it..

[RichG]

Governor keeps on helping the situation doesn't she. Is there anyway a governor in an emergency can be declared incompotent and removed from office. NO police are completly overwhelmed how can she sit there and prevent the military from taking over? Yes, I do believe there are many looters who will not leave because they want to keep their loot, however there are many folks who are not able to make decisions on their own anymore. The army is more than capable of taking care of both types of people.