An explanation for shooting which does make some sense

[x-y-no]

I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, or a smart thing to do, but tragically this explanation does make some sense. If this is true, then the horrible fact is it had the opposite of the intended effect.

From Charmaine Neville's story.

Charmaine: The Ninth Ward. In the Ninth Ward, and not just in my neighborhood but in other neighborhoods in the Ninth Ward, there are a lot of people who are still trapped down there. Old people, young people, babies, pregnant women, I mean, nobody's helping them. And I want people to realize that we did not stay in the city so that we could steal and loot and, and commit crimes. A lot of those young men lost their minds because the helicopters would fly over us and they wouldn't stop. We'd do SOS on the flashlights. We took everything. And it came to a point, it really did come to a point where these young men were so frustrated that they did start shooting. They weren't trying to hit the helicopters. They figured maybe they weren't seeing. Maybe if they hear this gunfire, they would stop then, but that didn't help us. Nothing like that helped us.

[cmdebbie]

and once the relief did come to the city, they were still shooting at them...so, what gives?

[x-y-no]

and once the relief did come to the city, they were still shooting at them...so, what gives?

Who are "they" and what reference do you have to back that up?

Are you flatly claiming that this woman is lying in a statement she made shortly after reaching safety?

[GalvestonDuck]

You can't help but wonder what they thought when helicopter after helicopter flew overhead, saw them, and then flew away.

They weren't watching TV, obviously, and were desperate to be rescued (probably wouldn't have been waving sheets, towels, colorful umbrellas, and signs if they weren't), so they were probably confused when the copters flew away especially if they couldn't tell the news crews were copters (or even if they could).

("They" - stranded New Orlinians)

[cmdebbie]

I NEVER said that this woman is lying. All I am saying is that this is not the excuse for all of the shootings that were and are still happening. Many of the shootings are by thugs...plain and simple.

I don't need a "reference" to back this up. Turn on the news...shootings are still happening by thugs. Just this morning I was watching the news (FOX news) and the reporter was hearing and reporting on gunfire in the background.

In summary, Sadly, I am sure there are lots of stories like this womans. However, unfortunately, there are also lots of stories where thugs were shooting at those trying to help them. There is more than one reason shots were being fired, thats all.

[x-y-no]

I NEVER said that this woman is lying. All I am saying is that this is not the excuse for all of the shootings that were and are still happening. Many of the shootings are by thugs...plain and simple.

Almost certainly some proportion were. I never said otherwise. Yet when I posted a story offering an explanation for why a particular group of people fired guns - not at helicopters, your reply was "and once the relief did come to the city, they were still shooting at them...so, what gives?"

You'll have to forgive me for reaching the obvious conclusion that the "they" you referred to were the people in the story. The thugs you now mention had no referent in this thread at all at that point.

I don't need a "reference" to back this up. Turn on the news...shootings are still happening by thugs. Just this morning I was watching the news (FOX news) and the reporter was hearing and reporting on gunfire in the background.

I continue to marvel at the certainty with which some can interpret incomplete evidence. Gunfire in the background of a news report is without question thugs shooting at helicopters, and not (for example) soldiers or police firing warning shots, or yet other people trying to draw attention to themselves.

I asked for references to specifically the claim of shots being fired at helicopters and for the claim that this continued after "relief did come to the city." I've watched and read a lot of news on this event, and I've seen a lot of references to "reports" of shootings at helicopters, or statements that "we heard" they were shooting at helicopters, etc. I've seen very little specificity of particular events, or timeframe, or frequency.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying it's no longer clear exactly what happened in many if not all of these cases, given that we now have a specific example of activity which probably was misinterpreted as shooting at helicopters but which wasn't.

In summary, Sadly, I am sure there are lots of stories like this womans. However, unfortunately, there are also lots of stories where thugs were shooting at those trying to help them. There is more than one reason shots were being fired, thats all.

My point is that the facts are a lot more murky than everyone is wont to make them. I see a lot of "facts" tossed around, and a lot of statements that such-and-such is "clear" etc. And I'm real mystified as to where all this clarity comes from (actually in most cases I'm not so mystified, but I'm trying to inject a little caution and reason into all this declarative certainty.)

[cmdebbie]

I am seeing numerous interviews on television of those that have not evacuated. They are stating one reason they do not want to leave is because of the thugs and looters (which they are still seeing). Many of them are armed and prepared to attempt protecting their homes.

I know that details and facts are "murky." But are you flat out saying that these people are lying?

The truth is that yes, there are people who are shooting to get one's attention so that they may be rescued. And yes, there are also those that are "bad" people. I understand why you don't want to believe that. I too, don't want to believe that there are people like this in the United States of America. But it is a fact; however, I do also understand that these "bad" people are just a few. Nevertheless, they do exist.

I guess in my original post I was not clear who "they" were. I should have stated that "some of the people" were still shooting at them. In addition, my original post was not meant to be argumentative with yours. Just stating that there is more than one reason the shootings were and are occuring.

Understandably so that this woman and her people were shooting; however, we should not try to make excuses for the few "scumbags!"

[stormie_skies]

There was an article in Slate a few days ago that discussed the same issue:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125575/

A short excerpt:

Politicians have blamed the violence in New Orleans on "thugs" and "hoodlums." That's true in some places, notably at the convention center. But the role of criminals, and of malice generally, has been inflated. The mayor blames a lot of the post-hurricane crime on junkies who freaked out because they were cut off from their fixes. And while a lot of people have looted non-necessities such as liquor, jewelry, and television sets, it isn't clear how much of this was taken with barter or desperation in mind.

What's striking about most of the crime is how ordinary the perpetrators and their motives are. They steal food and clothing. They say it's for their kids or neighbors. They argue—and some store managers agree—that that the flood would have ruined the goods anyway. Interviewed by reporters, they come off as decent citizens. Some are uniformed officers. You can imagine yourself, in dire circumstances, doing the same thing.

Unfortunately, the moral descent doesn't stop there. It isn't just the property crimes that were perpetrated for understandable reasons. It's the violent crimes, too. Carjackers were looking for cars to get out. Pirates were looking for boats. One guy described how men with knives demanded his generator. Without excusing them, it's easy to see how frightened people, perhaps with makeshift weapons, might start looking for things like generators. Pretty soon, you're an armed robber.

Or maybe you start confronting rescue personnel. Three or four days into your ordeal, if they brush past you because you're not on their agenda, maybe you push them, or worse. Look at the reports of stranded, hungry people accosting supply trucks, shooting at rescue planes and helicopters, or wrestling with Coast Guard swimmers who have come to help others. The rescuers flee, don't come back, or suspend operations while they try to figure out how to return safely. Next thing you know, one of every seven New Orleans cops is refusing to police the city. They can control ordinary criminals. What they can't control is a city full of ordinary-people-turned-criminals.

[x-y-no]

All right ... I give up. Communication is clearly already completely impossible.

How anyone could read "making excuses for scumbags" or denying they exist into anything I wrote is incomprehensible, but there it is ...

[cmdebbie]

You are obviously right that communication is impossible. You seem to be taking everything I say personally for whatever reason. I was only adding to your original post, not being argumentative. How many times do I have to repeat that?

I never said that YOU personally were making excuses for "scumbags" or pretending they did not exist. That was just a general statement to the entire public.

You have totally and completely taken my entire postings out of context and taken them personally. Obviously, I am having a hard time putting my feelings into words and for that I am sorry.

[x-y-no]

All right ... I apologize if I misunderstood you.

Obviously we're all a little raw around the edges when it comes to this tragedy. Or at least I definitely am.

[shaggy]

ask the cop that got shot in the head if the person that shot him was trying to get help or just some murdering thug that has no respect for life of anyone!!!

[cmdebbie]

ask the cop that got shot in the head if the person that shot him was trying to get help or just some murdering thug that has no respect for life of anyone!!!

and the 7 year old that was raped at the convention center and then had her throat slit and is now among those stacked in the freezer there!

[shaggy]

ask the cop that got shot in the head if the person that shot him was trying to get help or just some murdering thug that has no respect for life of anyone!!!

and the 7 year old that was raped at the convention center and then had her throat slit and is now among those stacked in the freezer there!

it would not pay for me to get my hands on any person that does that to a 7 yr old the wrath i would bestow upon him would be worse than anything imaginable!

[cmdebbie]

ask the cop that got shot in the head if the person that shot him was trying to get help or just some murdering thug that has no respect for life of anyone!!!

and the 7 year old that was raped at the convention center and then had her throat slit and is now among those stacked in the freezer there!

it would not pay for me to get my hands on any person that does that to a 7 yr old the wrath i would bestow upon him would be worse than anything imaginable!

Exactly! Or what about the 2 or 3 yr. old that was gang raped at the convention center until she died?

I am guessing that we will eventually hear that the reasoning behind this was because the helicopters weren't dropping sex objects (blow-up dolls)to them. I understand why some people were shooting to try to survive, but I do not and will not ever understand why some of these other stories have happened. There is no excuse for this and these people deserve to be hung by their testacles!!!

[stormie_skies]

I don't think anyone was ever trying to make excuses for people who were commiting rape and molestation. I don't think that was ever what this thread was about, and I'm not quite sure how that became a topic. The first post was referencing the shooting, not sex acts.

I think everyone acknowledges that there were some bad apples in New Orleans. That should be a given - randomly round up 40,000 people in any city anywhere, and there are sure to be a few nasty people in the bunch. Leave them in a place that is essentially void of any law enforcement, and they will act out. Their actions are not excusable. I think everyone here agrees on that.

A lot of questions were raised about the people shooting at rescue workers - a lot of people seemed unable to comprehend why someone would shoot at a person who was rescuing others. All x-y-no was trying to do is shed some light on some non-criminal - or at least understandable - reasons why otherwise good people would do such crazy things.

Another reason I remember hearing - and that the article I posted touched on - was a desire to force rescuers to evacuate the shooter first. I distinctly remember hearing on CNN that the person who was shooting at the evac helicopters trying to land at Charity Hospital was demanding that he and his family be evacuated first, before the patients. Thats why he was shooting - he was trying to hijack the thing. That might seem unsavory to us, but if you had been stranded in a flooded city with no food and no water for several days, if you had a family to protect, if you had no contact with the outside world and no idea if anyone was ever going to help you, and if you had seen rescue helicopters fly over you and your family time and time again, seeing you and moving on to rescue someone else - who is to say that the frustration and the will to survive would not get the best of you?

Just something to think about...

[cmdebbie]

Absolutely correct, it would probably get to me too. I never downplayed their agony.

I was just expanding on the topic, but I guess next time I will just start a new thread. Oh, but I would probably get bashed for that too. The way I saw it...this topic had room for expansion and discussion. I thought that was what this board is about...discussion?

[stormie_skies]

I don't think anyone was bashing you. It just sounded to me like you were lumping everyone into the same catagory as the child molesters....and thats not how I see it.

I agree with you 100% that if these molesters are found, someone needs to lock them up and throw away the key. It doesn't get much scummier than preying on children who are displaced, terrified and barely surviving....

[cmdebbie]

OK, I am going to try this one more time...

If you read my previous posts, you will see that I was not lumping everyone in the same category...I stated before and I will state again that the "bad" guys are a very few. However, they are there. I understand why some people were shooting at the helicopters, heck I probably would have done the same thing. However, this does not explain all of the horrendous crime that took place as well. I just felt like we need not forget all of the unnecessary crime that took and is still taking place. I just feel that by remembering all of the "bad" that has happened, we (our country, our government...local, state & federal) might be able to learn some lessons for the future. This is not in any way meant to downplay what the "good" people there have gone through. I shed many tears for them each and every day!

[stormie_skies]

OK - I gotcha.

You are right. There are a great deal of lessons that need to be learned from this - quickly - by both state and federal agencies. I have no idea why crime & anarchy weren't planned for. Things like that should be a given when dealing with a situation like this....