death toll may already be over 1,000

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southerngale
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#81 Postby southerngale » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:28 pm

Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt said Sunday the death toll from Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath is in the thousands, the first time a federal official has acknowledged what many had feared.

Leavitt said he couldn't provide a precise number on the impact of the devastation, but when asked if it was in the thousands, he told CNN's "Late Edition," "I think it's evident it's in the thousands."

"It's clear to me that this has been sickeningly difficult, and profoundly tragic circumstance," Leavitt said.

Earlier in the day, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff had declined to estimate the death toll, but conceded that an untold number of people could have perished in swamped homes and temporary shelters where many went for days without food or water.

"I think we need to prepare the country for what's coming," Chertoff said. "What's going to happen when we de-water and remove the water from New Orleans is we're going to uncover people who died, maybe hiding in houses, got caught by the flood, people whose remains are going to be found in the streets. ... It is going to be about as ugly of a scene as I think you can imagine."


:(

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/09/04/D8CDGL400.html
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#82 Postby wx247 » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:37 pm

NBC Nightly News just said that someone (I didn't catch the name) is estimating 10,000 dead in NOLA alone. :eek:
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#83 Postby huricanwatcher » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:17 pm

was going to post earlier that another zero should be added 10,000..... but didnt want the trolls to come out... unfortunate and sad but glad it was reported as so
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disease threat overplayed?

#84 Postby southerngreen » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:42 pm

NC George wrote:
greeng13 wrote:
huricanwatcher wrote:After Floyd came to our area here in eastern NC, if you were anywheres near a disaster assistance location, you were asked if you were in the water.... they pulled you asside and gave you a tetnus shot... hope this is going on in the GOM areas affected.


it is far more than just tetanus though...staph, hepatitis, malaria (even), botulism, dyssentary (sp?), etc....not to mention just being in close quarters with a crowd of people who may be carriers of other diseases...meningitis, flu, etc...

they need the CDC down there...some reporters (from diff. stations) are saying they need a "public health official" at the shelters outside of NO. I think you need many reps from the CDC.


I think the disease angle is being overplayed. It was with the tsunami. Sure, some people will catch some diseases. I don't think there will be a widespread outbreak. I say this because: There is no nastier water than the stuff that flowed across eastern NC and stayed for weeks. Mainly the waste of hog lagoons (that's an acre of liquid hog manure 10 feet deep,) pesticides and fertilizers , and rivers that have toxic organisims (phisteria.) Yet in spite of all of this, we had no major outbreak of disease here. Sure, people got funny sores on them, and got antibiotics, they healed right up.


when you read press reports that people are squatting behind a potted plant as a restroom and that the dead have blood running into the gutter right beside where people are sitting, and there are babies lying on the sidewalk with nothing under them except a bedsheet there is no way to "overplay" the disease angle. and having grown up on a farm i'd have to say that people are a LOT nastier and carry more diseases by far than any animal i know of.
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#85 Postby Brent » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:57 pm

wx247 wrote:NBC Nightly News just said that someone (I didn't catch the name) is estimating 10,000 dead in NOLA alone. :eek:


LSU Hurricane Center computer model using the scenario that happened.

:(
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#86 Postby jpigott » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:29 am

not to be morbid, but i have not heard any updates from the Miss. cororners in a few days. I recall gov. Haley Barbour last week updating the recovery operations a number of times, but i have not heard any lately. I hope it is just the media that is giving all the attention to NO. I would hate to think all SAR resources are in NO and not dispersed along the Miss. coastal areas as well
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#87 Postby JQ Public » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:11 pm

Hooray! Estimates are now a little more conservative with respect to death amounts! Not the 10,000 expected before :) :) :)
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#88 Postby Derek Ortt » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:22 pm

still concerned about the 9th ward and the areas south of NO. We are just getting word from what remains of the parishes south of the city (the parts not a part of the GOM) and it is not pretty there. Nothing from the 9th ward, which is not a good sign at all
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#89 Postby soonertwister » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:45 pm

If you have a good monitor, and a large one, take a look at this picture.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24428006.jpg

Look at it really closely, especially in the area above the levee breach, which is very evident in the middle of the photo. Scan around the flooded areas there, and focus on the features you see.

With a good monitor, you should see what I see. That's why I'm not particularly optimistic that the death toll is going to be dramatically lower than feared. There are some areas in NOLA that have been hit extremely hard. There's one pretty big area I found where for blocks the houses aren't just flooded, every single one is completely under water, the entire house.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think my eyes deceive me.
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#90 Postby wxmann_91 » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:25 pm

soonertwister wrote:If you have a good monitor, and a large one, take a look at this picture.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24428006.jpg

Look at it really closely, especially in the area above the levee breach, which is very evident in the middle of the photo. Scan around the flooded areas there, and focus on the features you see.

With a good monitor, you should see what I see. That's why I'm not particularly optimistic that the death toll is going to be dramatically lower than feared. There are some areas in NOLA that have been hit extremely hard. There's one pretty big area I found where for blocks the houses aren't just flooded, every single one is completely under water, the entire house.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think my eyes deceive me.


Yeah that's where the first levee breach occurred, water probably rushed into dry land so fast it acted like a wave (something that occurs during dam breaks as well) and destroyed everything in its path, thus leaving behind such damage.
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#91 Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:49 pm

jpigott wrote:not to be morbid, but i have not heard any updates from the Miss. cororners in a few days. I recall gov. Haley Barbour last week updating the recovery operations a number of times, but i have not heard any lately. I hope it is just the media that is giving all the attention to NO. I would hate to think all SAR resources are in NO and not dispersed along the Miss. coastal areas as well


The forces from Florida were covering MS. Task force 4 from central Florida and Task Force 5 from Jacksonville, as well as TF1 were all there. There may even have been others, but that is who I saw. TF1, TF4 and TF5 are all USAR teams.

I was in Jackson county with TF Alpha (an EMS team) from 2sept until 7sept and no bodies were found there, nor were there any reported in Biloxi during the same time frame, to the best of my knowledge.
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#92 Postby Windy » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:24 pm

And for those of you without big monitors, I cropped in on just one area of the photo that soonertwister posted. I also toned the photo, since the levels were way off (this should make the photo much more clear).

http://chakalakasp.cliche-host.net/storm2k/nolacroptoned.jpg
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#93 Postby soonertwister » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:25 pm

wxmann_91 wrote:
soonertwister wrote:If you have a good monitor, and a large one, take a look at this picture.

http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/storms/katrina/24428006.jpg

Look at it really closely, especially in the area above the levee breach, which is very evident in the middle of the photo. Scan around the flooded areas there, and focus on the features you see.

With a good monitor, you should see what I see. That's why I'm not particularly optimistic that the death toll is going to be dramatically lower than feared. There are some areas in NOLA that have been hit extremely hard. There's one pretty big area I found where for blocks the houses aren't just flooded, every single one is completely under water, the entire house.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think my eyes deceive me.


Yeah that's where the first levee breach occurred, water probably rushed into dry land so fast it acted like a wave (something that occurs during dam breaks as well) and destroyed everything in its path, thus leaving behind such damage.


wx, it's not the damage, which is severe, it's what's floating in the water. I'm not blind, I can see what's there. Take these early casualty estimates with a large grain of salt.
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#94 Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:28 pm

I must be. At the resolution here, I can't see anything but specks. Could be anything, unless your eyes are better than mine.

Satellite pics have a 1m resolution (well, the civilian ones anyway).
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#95 Postby soonertwister » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:36 pm

That satellite supposedly has 0.5 m resolution, or about 1-1/2 feet. Most things either sink or float in the water, and don't drift partially above or near the surface.

But human bodies do. We are 97% water, and slightly more buoyant than water. The natural tendency of human bodies is to float around like icebergs, with 90+ percent below water.
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#96 Postby mf_dolphin » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:38 pm

The only thing I see are cars under or almost under water.
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#97 Postby soonertwister » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:38 pm

Also, sharpenu, some operating system image viewers don't allow you to expand images to their actual size, where one pixel of the picture equals one pixel on your monitor screen. At 1024x768, these pictures are about 9-16 times larger than your monitor resolution. They are really big.
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#98 Postby JQ Public » Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:56 pm

Woo Hoo some definite good news :)

CNN wrote:General: Death toll likely much lower than 10,000
Mayors fault FEMA response to hurricane

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- The Army general in charge of the U.S. military's hurricane relief effort said Sunday that Hurricane Katrina's death toll in New Orleans will be "a heck of a lot lower" than officials had feared.

Lt. Gen Russel Honore told CNN's "Late Edition" the death toll in New Orleans is unlikely to reach 10,000, a figure Mayor Ray Nagin had estimated based on how many people appeared to have evacuated and how many had stayed behind.

"I think it's going to be a lower number, much lower than the 10,000," said Honore. "A heck of a lot lower than that."

The number, Honore said, "came out at a very emotional time, with not a lot of facts, and I think from talking to the city officials and the communicating with the parish presidents, I think intuitively we were saying, that number will be much lower."

He emphasized that officials still do not know how many people died in the storm and flooding that ravaged New Orleans.

As of Sunday morning, the official death toll in Louisiana was 154. Officials in five states put the overall total of dead at 383.

President Bush will fly to New Orleans on Sunday, his third trip to the Gulf Coast since the storm struck.

On Saturday, Bush told a radio audience that Americans will come together and make the region "more vibrant than ever." (Full story)

Honore said his troops will continue to assist New Orleans residents who refuse to leave their homes despite a mandatory evacuation order.

When asked if the assistance his forces are providing -- bottles of water and food for people who won't leave -- is in opposition to what the city and state want, Honore said local officials are also giving out supplies.

"I mean, these are tough decisions. They go to the heart and core of our democracy and people being able to make their own decisions," he said. "But there is a greater good for the community, I've said in many meetings at the state and the city level, and they will work their way through that.

"Right now, we want to make sure that we're taking care of the people that are alive, and that we are treating them with dignity and respect."

Honore's comments echoed what Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad Allen, head of the federal relief task force, said on ABC's "This Week."

Allen said that military members will go door to door in a support role, and if someone did not want to leave, it would become "a local law enforcement matter."

Nagin, appearing on NBC's "Meet The Press", said he wants the city to bounce back swiftly.

"The big thing is going to be what happens when the testing comes back -- the test results from the water that we sampled," he said. "If that comes back with normal levels or just a little bit elevated levels as far as health risks, we will definitely accelerate and make sure that not only the French Quarter, but Algiers and some of uptown and our airport comes back on line so we can get the city going quickly."

Nagin said he still needed to confirm a report that the floodwaters will be gone much sooner than first thought, but progress was being made.

"I always knew that once we got the pumps up, some of our significant pumps going, that we could accelerate the draining process," he said. "The big one is pumping station six, which is our most powerful pump, and I am understanding that that's just about ready to go."

The Army Corps of Engineers revised Saturday its timetable for draining the floodwaters from New Orleans, saying the process should be completed in October. The corps said 32 of the 148 pumps in and around the city were operating as of noon Saturday, and Allen said pumping capacity is his top priority. (Full story)
Mayors slam FEMA response

Almost two weeks after Katrina ravaged the Gulf Coast, some of the cities hardest hit by the storm are waiting for more help.

"Clearly the FEMA response has been slow," Matthew Avara, mayor of Pascagoula, Mississippi, told CNN Saturday night.

"We got a lot of good people on the ground here that are with FEMA and with the state agencies," he said. "They wear their badges, and they look good. But unfortunately, we just not have seen all the assets and all the resources that we need in our city."

FEMA -- the Federal Emergency Management Agency -- has been criticized for what state and local officials have said was a slow response to Katrina, which hit the Gulf Coast August 29.

FEMA director Michael Brown was recalled to Washington on Friday by Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, who named Adm. Allen to head the hurricane relief efforts.

Slidell, Louisiana, Mayor Ben Morris also slammed FEMA Saturday, saying when the storm hit, "everything we did was on our own."

The situation was gradually changing, he said.

"It's been quite slow, but we do have some of their folks on the ground, and they're working real hard," he said. "Hopefully, they'll get up to speed sometime soon."

FEMA said Saturday it has paid $669 million to more than 570,000 households affected by the storm, The Associated Press reported.
Other developments

* The federal government Saturday abandoned its effort to prevent the media from reporting on the recovery of bodies in New Orleans after CNN filed a lawsuit. (Full story)

* Sen. Barack Obama, D-Illinois, criticized President Bush on Sunday for responding to the crisis with a "spin operation" but no apparent sense that the government had failed its people. Obama pointed to a Cabinet meeting Bush held last week, during which the president briefly addressed cameras. "There was no sense of reflection, no sense that, you know, things didn't go the way they were supposed to and that we needed to take away some lessons learned," Obama told ABC's "This Week."

* The American Red Cross put out an urgent call Saturday for 40,000 new volunteers to help feed, house and comfort Hurricane Katrina victims. The first shift of 10,000 recruits will be needed in two weeks to relieve 36,000 volunteers now deployed, Red Cross spokesman John Degnan said.
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#99 Postby PTrackerLA » Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:09 pm

I said this in another thread but I really never thought the death toll would be as high as 10,000. Seems that it's human nature to think the worst in hard times, just like when we thought over 10,000 had died in the WTC and it turned out to be much lower, under 3,000. I honestly doubt the death toll will be higher than 3,000, which is much better than 10,000.
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#100 Postby vbhoutex » Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:39 pm

If the water rushed in in the 9th ward area, there is no way of knowing until the water is drained how many were literally trapped in their homes and did not survive. I pray that there are only a few. I fear differently. I'm not saying there are 10,000, just that we don't have a way of knowing till each one of those homes is thoroughly searched. I do know what my wifes coworker heard from her husband who was doing SAR in NO two days after Katrina landfalled and the quote was "we are moving bodies out of the way and securing them so we can move on to rescue those still alive" This is actually less morbid than what was actually said. There was no indication that it was one or two or masses of bodies so I can make no judgement from that. However, even if the death toll is 3,000, THAT IS STAGGERING and unheard of in this country with the exception of those lost on 9/11. As far as the MS death toll is concerned, I am encouraged by what we have been hearing out of there. Hopefully many did leave or at least got to safety as opposed to the varying percentages we heard that stayed behind and were subjected to the now confirmed 31 foot storm surges in some areas(Biloxi in the back bay areas).
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