Pascal & Bernoulli principles combined weaken hurricanes

[quandary]

I don't have the resources to do such an experiment. It is just an idea I had a few years ago while going through Andrew.

You seem pretty adamant about the idea for someone who is just thinking about it. You don't recognize the consequences, only the benefits. It would be okay if you could just justify the consequences. Even a statement like letting England freeze over is not our problem, which is of course insensitive and perhaps not politically correct recognizes the existance of certain consequences and then justifies why the idea still might work. However, you don't do this and still push the idea.

[wxmann_91]

You mean by stoping the Gulf stream will kill global warming? Yeah with starving to death like the little ice from 1300 to 1800 AD. A deep freeze over most of Europe/North America. In a world climate shift. Heck even after the change who can tell there will not still be tropical cyclones.

VERY good point Matt. The Gulf Stream is the most important ocean current in the world - stopping it plunges the whole world into a deep Ice Age. I think the last Ice Age (the one that killed the woolly mammoths) was due to a shutdown of the Gulf Stream. A mini Ice Age a few hundred years ago was due to just a slight shift of the Stream or maybe the complete shutdown of the Loop Current. No more TC's, maybe, but that would be replaced with constant blizzards and subzero temperatures north of 30 degrees latitude.

[P.K.]

A deep freeze over most of Europe/North America. In a world climate shift. Heck even after the change who can tell there will not still be tropical cyclones.

There are some people who would like that over here.

We could just have lots more polar lows (Which can reach hurricane strength) rather than tropical systems.......

The Gulf Stream doesn't keep the climate warm over here though, it is the North Atlantic Drift.

[quandary]

Oh and no offense to England. I'm just saying that this is a method of justification that is superior to ignoring the consequences. Dealing with the hurricane problem in this way is like saying we should just give money to everyone to solve the poverty issue without recognizing that this money must have a source.

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

There has been periods even before the little ice age in which it was much warmer. Green land once was green humans once lived there. But after the Little ice age its under a mile of ice. In Europe they used to have grape vines growing much further northward. Even before the last big ice age that started 105 thousand years ago there was a long period of warmer then today. Cuting a global cirualtion ocean current off would change the whole worlds climate. First it would freeze Europe/North America. Then Change everything. A billion people will starve. Its all fine in good intill the big story comes out of the cat box.

[P.K.]

Oh and no offense to England. I'm just saying that this is a method of justification that is superior to ignoring the consequences.

Any method like this has to look at consequences it would have elsewhere, no one is more important than anyone else.

[cyclonekiller]

This will eliminate global warming which may disrupt the flow of the gulfstream.

This would not elimate global warming. It would not provide that much power because it would be impossible to set up a way to transport the power from the sites to the mainland in a cost effective manner. Cars and home heating still often uses GASOLINE, which would still continue global warming.

Maybe not eliminate but it would put a huge dent in it so to speak and slow it down. Another way the power could be transported is microwave beam technology they are already planning to use it in space.

[wxmann_91]

There has been periods even before the little ice age in which it was much warmer. Green land once was green humans once lived there. But after the Little ice age its under a mile of ice. In Europe they used to have grape vines growing much further northward. Even before the last big ice age that started 105 thousand years ago there was a long period of warmer then today. Cuting a global cirualtion ocean current off would change the whole worlds climate. First it would freeze Europe/North America. Then Change everything. A billion people will starve. Its all fine in good intill the big story comes out of the cat box.

That's actually an understatement. A big Ice Age could cause a mass extinction - that could involve us humans.

[cyclonekiller]

There has been periods even before the little ice age in which it was much warmer. Green land once was green humans once lived there. But after the Little ice age its under a mile of ice. In Europe they used to have grape vines growing much further northward. Even before the last big ice age that started 105 thousand years ago there was a long period of warmer then today. Cuting a global cirualtion ocean current off would change the whole worlds climate. First it would freeze Europe/North America. Then Change everything. A billion people will starve. Its all fine in good intill the big story comes out of the cat box.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not stopping the gulfstream at all.It still flows through the tunnels. It just mixes cooler water from below with the warmer water above. The flow stays linear with the gulfstream. The vertical rise of the cool water is proportional to the horizontal flow of the gulfstream

[cyclonekiller]

But that recommendation to Kerry E. looks suspect. You
need more analysis...much more meteorologically backed analysis
before you can send a paper for research review...if you are
really into the idea...do a modeling experiment

I don't have the resources to do such an experiment. It is just an idea I had a few years ago while going through Andrew.

I always enjoy a sharing of ideas. Don't hesitate to state an idea especially if it has good reasoning.
If you just want to state the idea...I have no problem with that...
just be aware of the implications and have contingency
measures in your idea to try to mitigate any potentially dangerous
consequences of your idea.

But just for information...
In order for it to become official...
in order for it to be translated into policy legislation to
permit and fund the construction of such things:

the problem is that this construction would be an
arduous task...if you are truly into the idea...perhaps try to get
an internship with a researcher, engineer, or computer model
simulator who can assist you in some fashion. If this idea is your
true passion, feel free to pursue it, but remember that there
are many processes before an idea can be translated into
policy legislation. First the research must meet today's standards
of valid scientific research, and it must be tested repeatedly.
Second, it has to be effectively translated into policy, which is an
arduous task, especially with legislators and Congressional
Officials' constituencies that would not readily give up many of
the things that cause global warming....like poor fuel sources...
many industries will fight back...I'm not saying that the fact that
others will fight back ought to negate your idea...I'm just pointing out
that it will be a very arduous task getting it translated into policy...and
first you must have extensive scientific research that meets
today's research standards...just be aware of these flies in
the ointment of your idea...

But if you can light a spark by throwing out the idea...perhaps
a group of future researchers can incorporate it somehow.

Who do you suggest?

[HurricaneBill]

From: Michael Oppenheimer [mailtomichael@Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:40 AM
To: Pat McNulty
Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornado's


All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with the tunnel. Any thoughts?

[cyclonekiller]

This:

From: Michael Oppenheimer [mailtomichael@Princeton.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 4:40 AM
To: Pat McNulty
Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornado's

Sounds plausible. Questions I would ask include the cost of construction, cost of maintaining the system, side effects to the local marine environment. Whether it actually would work ought to be tested with some modeling. You could contact Kerry Emanuel at MIT to see what he thinks of the possibility of modeling it to see if it actually works as envisioned.

________________________________________
From: Pat McNulty [mailto:stackgenerator@cableone.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 1:19 AM
To: 'Michael Oppenheimer'
Subject: RE: Bernoulli's equation used to modify hurricanes and tornados's

Here is how it will work. Anchor a large tunnel to the sea floor like a buoy but in several locations around the tunnel to hold it fast to the sea bed.
Position it to where one open end opposes the current at depth where the cool water is and the other open end at the surface faces away from the current. What happens is a difference in pressure is created at both ends and when a pressure difference is created flow occurs. That is the beauty of Bernoulli's principle. Cool water is bought up from below thus mixing with the warm water at the surface. The tunnel is neutrally buoyant with the top end just under the surface. Remember it can only work where there is a current. No current, no difference in pressure. Also, enough electricity can be generated for millions of people in Florida.
With the use of both of these principles combined no pumps are needed since the water will flow up the tunnel naturally. They can also be placed in the Yucatan and Caribbean currents thus cooling the Gulf of Mexico via the loop current thus saving the Gulf States, if placed SW of Key West They will save the whole East coast Of North America. The SSTs can be regulated to 70 to 80 degrees by the addition of a gate on the discharge end of the tunnel that regulates the flow of cool water flowing from them.
The idea does not eliminate the hurricanes it modifies them to a much weaker state no more than a catagory one by regulating the SSTs. The transfer of heat to the mid latitudes still occurs. The ocean temperature is regulated between 70 and 75 degrees and therefore as the storm crosses the cooler water it just weakens but it is not eliminated. BTW during the winter the temperature of the gulf is below 70 degrees so this should not harm sea life.
tornado's may not even form in the mid west because of the cooler temperatures in the Gulf thus cooling the warm air migrating to the North out of the Gulf Of Mexico. Since the air is cooler not as much lift is created in the atmosphere for tornados to form.
Pascal’s principle:
F1 is the force of the gulf stream exerts on the mouth of the tunnel at depth.

http://www.scientia.org/cadonline/P...uids/pascal.ASP

Bernoulli's principle:
A negative pressure is created when the gulf stream rushs pass the exit of the tunnel near the surface.

http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node68.html

All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with the tunnel. Any thoughts?

[Matt-hurricanewatcher]

There has been periods even before the little ice age in which it was much warmer. Green land once was green humans once lived there. But after the Little ice age its under a mile of ice. In Europe they used to have grape vines growing much further northward. Even before the last big ice age that started 105 thousand years ago there was a long period of warmer then today. Cuting a global cirualtion ocean current off would change the whole worlds climate. First it would freeze Europe/North America. Then Change everything. A billion people will starve. Its all fine in good intill the big story comes out of the cat box.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not stopping the gulfstream at all.It still flows through the tunnels. It just mixes cooler water from below with the warmer water above. The flow stays linear with the gulfstream. The vertical rise of the cool water is proportional to the horizontal flow of the gulfstream

How would you force the water up? In if so the effects of global climate would change in some way.

[cyclonekiller]

Bernoullis principle forces it up by creating a pressure difference at both ends.

[HurricaneBill]

This:

tl;dr (internet translation: "too long; didn't read")

All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with the tunnel. Any thoughts?

[cyclonekiller]

This:

tl;dr (internet translation: "too long; didn't read")

All I did was combine both principles together to make the thing work with the tunnel. Any thoughts?

Perhaps, we can mind meld then.

[vbhoutex]

FAIR WARNING TO EVERYONE!! This is not to become a bashing fest. This thread is being watched by staff.

Now, my own take. I find this at a minimum OUTLANDISH and virtually impossible to implement. Just the construction problems of working in a strong current are enough to make this almost impossible.

Past that please show us where the Gulf Stream and/or loop current is known to run along the ocean floor as opposed to at other depths. This would not work unless this was the case.

And last, but not least I still stick by the old adage-DON'T MESS WITH MOTHER NATURE!!!! I guarantee you she knows exactly what she is doing and will not allow her "plan" to be altered, at least not without DIRE CONSEQUENCES!!!

[x-y-no]

Strange ... I don't see the original post in this thread, but I gather it was something about modifying the Gulf Stream as a way of countering global warming?

Aside from the overall impracticality of such an idea, it would only rearrange the regional distribution of GW effects, not alter the global heat budget. So I really don't see the point.

[vbhoutex]

Strange ... I don't see the original post in this thread, but I gather it was something about modifying the Gulf Stream as a way of countering global warming?

Aside from the overall impracticality of such an idea, it would only rearrange the regional distribution of GW effects, not alter the global heat budget. So I really don't see the point.

That part accidentally got left behind while this thread was being manipulated. I need to hone my skills a little, I guess. However the original post is further down in the thread as a quote(copies of emails).

And you stated what I left out in my comments and what has been alluded to elsewhere in the thread. GW is not only SSt's so the claim that this would affect Global Warming(if it in reality exists) doesn't wash, at least not that I can see.

[quandary]

There has been periods even before the little ice age in which it was much warmer. Green land once was green humans once lived there. But after the Little ice age its under a mile of ice. In Europe they used to have grape vines growing much further northward. Even before the last big ice age that started 105 thousand years ago there was a long period of warmer then today. Cuting a global cirualtion ocean current off would change the whole worlds climate. First it would freeze Europe/North America. Then Change everything. A billion people will starve. Its all fine in good intill the big story comes out of the cat box.

That's actually an understatement. A big Ice Age could cause a mass extinction - that could involve us humans.

It seems that if any organism survives on earth except perhaps small singled celled things or cockroaches, it'll be a few humans at least. Billions dying is possible, but humans are resourceful, powerful in terms of understanding the procreation process and science and all that, so we will survive and endure. However, the whole point has been that we prosper.