Solar/Climate researcher may join my discussions here

[Jim Hughes]

A solar/climate researcher, who teaches at Hartnell Community College, in Monterey County California, may be joining in on my discussions here pretty soon.

I had given Ed Mecurio a call earlier this morning but he was not there so I left him short message explaining whom I was and what I was trying to do here. He was nice enough to give me a call back this evening.

We talked for about 15 minutes and it went fairly well. Ed is also having somewhat of a hard time in trying to get a listening audience. Or better yet an open group to have some dialog with.

I briefly told him about some of my theories but I did not go into certain things.

Ed's research, which I have posted URL's for in some of my past discussions, deals with how longer climate trends are affected by the sun's different magnetic cycles and galatic cosmic rays (GCR).

He has researched many other things also. He was somewhat surprised to here some of my thoughts but he understood where I was coming from.

I am going to e-mail him the URL 's to some of my prior discussions. I am sure that he will also post some of his own material. I very much hope that these open discussions will lead to something over the long run.

Maybe storm2k will become a special place to talk about space weather.


Ed's research paper

http://www.hartnell.cc.ca.us/faculty/mercurio/gcr2.html



Jim

[brunota2003]

Hey, good for you guys, keep 'em coming... I "listen" and sometimes speak up...

[cycloneye]

That is great news that more experts will join us very soon.Looking foward Jim for your discussions on this interesting theme.

[WindRunner]

Glad to hear that we'll be getting more insight into this field, and that you aren't alone in your beliefs, Jim. Can't wait to hear from him.

[mf_dolphin]

This topic is being moved to the proper forum....

[Jim Hughes]

Well I guess space weather has been moved to the back of the bus again. I thought I made some strides this summer but some things never seem to change. I have no idea what has occurred but Dolphin is the boss here.

I wish people could see this from my angle and what I have gone through over the years.

I get two emails from radio talk shows inviting me to talk on the air. One host even talks about having me on to all of his listeners.

What happens? I never get on the air. The rug gets pulled out from under me and both the radio show hosts _Never_ explain their change in attitude.

Strange events always occur around me for some reason. TWC forum last summer ... etc...


Jim

[Aslkahuna]

Have to realize that this is a controversial topic and there are certain members who don't want to see any discussion on this topic cluttering up "their" boards so they complain vociferously to the admins. That said, I will bow down to the wishes of the staff and restrict any and all of my posts on Space Weather including my aurora alerts in this venue only and if somebody misses a spectacular aurbo because they don't come here and read the alerts that's their own problem and it's just too bad.

Steve

[Jim Hughes]

Have to realize that this is a controversial topic and there are certain members who don't want to see any discussion on this topic cluttering up "their" boards so they complain vociferously to the admins. That said, I will bow down to the wishes of the staff and restrict any and all of my posts on Space Weather including my aurora alerts in this venue only and if somebody misses a spectacular aurbo because they don't come here and read the alerts that's their own problem and it's just too bad.

Steve

Well when your a guest in someone's house you have to follow their rules...and yes I know political pressure is in every facet of our life Steve. But once again the traffic is quiet here. This post got 34 views within an hour over in the Talkin Tropics forum. Only about eight have occurred since 10 pm and two of them are mine and one is yours. That leaves only five. Pretty bad....

You can look back at my older threads here and see how the view numbers do not even compare to my posts in the other place. We're talking 15-21 ratios here.

I have no idea if Ed will join these discussions here now. I am hoping that he still will. I would hate to let the complainers win out here.



Jim

[terstorm1012]

Jim are you going to come back to talking tropics??

Maybe post a season wrapup!

[P.K.]

This post got 34 views within an hour over in the Talkin Tropics forum. Only about eight have occurred since 10 pm and two of them are mine and one is yours. That leaves only five. Pretty bad....

One of those would have been me, but I tend to be on my own in this part of the forum.

Have you heard of W.P. Sokeland? He published an article on "Solar Pillars of Fire, Part 1: Tornadoes from the Sun" in the Journal of Meteorology in April (See http://www.journalofmeteorology.com). I'm waiting for part 2 to be published which covers typhoons and hurricanes as far as I can see.

[Jim Hughes]

Jim are you going to come back to talking tropics??

Maybe post a season wrapup!

Sorry terstorm1012 but it would be pretty hard for me to do a post season wrap up when I am not allowed to talk about something. Dolphin has told me that I can no longer post anything about space weather in the Talkin Tropics Forum anymore.


Jim

[Jim Hughes]

Have you heard of W.P. Sokeland? He published an article on "Solar Pillars of Fire, Part 1: Tornadoes from the Sun" in the Journal of Meteorology in April (See http://www.journalofmeteorology.com). I'm waiting for part 2 to be published which covers typhoons and hurricanes as far as I can see.

No I have not heard of W.P. Sokeland. You have peaked my curiosity. What exactly was he trying to link to the earth's weather?



Jim

[terstorm1012]

Jim are you going to come back to talking tropics??

Maybe post a season wrapup!

Sorry terstorm1012 but it would be pretty hard for me to do a post season wrap up when I am not allowed to talk about something. Dolphin has told me that I can no longer post anything about space weather in the Talkin Tropics Forum anymore.


Jim

That's ridiculous and awful.

[P.K.]

No I have not heard of W.P. Sokeland. You have peaked my curiosity. What exactly was he trying to link to the earth's weather?

They way I understand it he says that there are positively charged ions revolving at high speed emitted by the sun. 50% of these will be anti-clockwise and 50% will be clockwise. When they encounter the Earth they take the path of least resistance. However due to the direction of the field lines only cyclonic rotating voriticies tend to get through. (Around 1% of tornadoes are anti-cyclonic if I remember right) This apparently helps to explain the majority of tornadoes being found in the mid latitudes.

The fact that the Earth’s magnetic field increases in strength as a charged ion approaches the surface from outer space produces the magnetic bottle effect and some ionic particles in the inner Van Allen belts are normally reflected back and forth between the northern to southern hemisphere . The nearest location to the earth’s surface of the trapped ionic particle of the Van Allen belts is at mid-latitudes.

I don't want to comment on his thoughts on tropical cyclones yet though as that bit hasn't been published so far.

[x-y-no]

No I have not heard of W.P. Sokeland. You have peaked my curiosity. What exactly was he trying to link to the earth's weather?

They way I understand it he says that there are positively charged ions revolving at high speed emitted by the sun. 50% of these will be anti-clockwise and 50% will be clockwise. When they encounter the Earth they take the path of least resistance. However due to the direction of the field lines only cyclonic rotating voriticies tend to get through. (Around 1% of tornadoes are anti-cyclonic if I remember right) This apparently helps to explain the majority of tornadoes being found in the mid latitudes.

The fact that the Earth’s magnetic field increases in strength as a charged ion approaches the surface from outer space produces the magnetic bottle effect and some ionic particles in the inner Van Allen belts are normally reflected back and forth between the northern to southern hemisphere . The nearest location to the earth’s surface of the trapped ionic particle of the Van Allen belts is at mid-latitudes.

I don't want to comment on his thoughts on tropical cyclones yet though as that bit hasn't been published so far.

Uhhh ... charged solar particles are imparting spin to tornadic cells?

I'm sorry, but that really doesn't pass the reasonableness test. The angular momentum innvolved in atomic spin is infinitesimal compared to the angular momentum in even a single tornadic cell.

Even disregarding the huge disparity in momentum, the field lines bring these particles to Earth in the polar regions, which is why that's where aurora occur. So how come tornados aren't arctic phenomena?

[Jim Hughes]

No I have not heard of W.P. Sokeland. You have peaked my curiosity. What exactly was he trying to link to the earth's weather?

They way I understand it he says that there are positively charged ions revolving at high speed emitted by the sun. 50% of these will be anti-clockwise and 50% will be clockwise. When they encounter the Earth they take the path of least resistance. However due to the direction of the field lines only cyclonic rotating voriticies tend to get through. (Around 1% of tornadoes are anti-cyclonic if I remember right) This apparently helps to explain the majority of tornadoes being found in the mid latitudes.

The fact that the Earth’s magnetic field increases in strength as a charged ion approaches the surface from outer space produces the magnetic bottle effect and some ionic particles in the inner Van Allen belts are normally reflected back and forth between the northern to southern hemisphere . The nearest location to the earth’s surface of the trapped ionic particle of the Van Allen belts is at mid-latitudes.

I don't want to comment on his thoughts on tropical cyclones yet though as that bit hasn't been published so far.

Uhhh ... charged solar particles are imparting spin to tornadic cells?

I'm sorry, but that really doesn't pass the reasonableness test. The angular momentum innvolved in atomic spin is infinitesimal compared to the angular momentum in even a single tornadic cell.

Even disregarding the huge disparity in momentum, the field lines bring these particles to Earth in the polar regions, which is why that's where aurora occur. So how come tornados aren't arctic phenomena?

I think it would look more impartial if we were to actually read the article in the meteorological journal before shooting it down. I think it would be fair to say that Sokeland may be looking at things differently than yourself. This does not mean that he is right but maybe reading the full context of his theory would shed some light on this.

BTW you always act like everything stays in the polar regions. This is untrue. Read up on the ring current or DST Index.

Granted it is about 2-5 radii away/above the earth's equator but some research papers have talked about how some particles become neutralized and this lets them propagate down to the upper atmosphere at the mid and lower latitudes.


Jim

[terstorm1012]

Where can I find this guy's work?

[x-y-no]

I think it would look more impartial if we were to actually read the article in the meteorological journal before shooting it down. I think it would be fair to say that Sokeland may be looking at things differently than yourself. This does not mean that he is right but maybe reading the full context of his theory would shed some light on this.

Well, if he's saying something different than what was implied, I'm perfectly willing to reconsider. But the first thing one always should do when presented with some new hypothesis is to try and gauge whether the proposed mechanism is at least within the realm of possibility. Consider it the first of many strokes of Occam's razor.

BTW you always act like everything stays in the polar regions. This is untrue. Read up on the ring current or DST Index.

Granted it is about 2-5 radii away/above the earth's equator but some research papers have talked about how some particles become neutralized and this lets them propagate down to the upper atmosphere at the mid and lower latitudes.


Jim

I have never claimed that everything stays in the polar regions. The Earth's weather is a fully coupled system, and eventually effects can propagate anywhere (although some things - like crossing the equator - are harder than others.

But due to the Earth's magnetic field, the bulk of charged particles from the sun which impact Earth do so at very high latitudes. Thus if one is going to propose some effect in the mid-latitudes or tropics related to those charged particles, it must be an indirect effect via the polar regions, and one needs to be able to explain what that mechanism is.

[P.K.]

Where can I find this guy's work?

I can't find it anywhere online. I'm not going to post anymore of it than I already have done due to copyright issues.

[sponger]

Keep at it Jim and don't get discouraged. You have opened our eyes to an emerging science that may pay huge dividends in global climate understanding.

Keep the posts coming! With any luck, you will put global weather forum on the map!

Have a Merry Christmas