My viewpoint on religion in schools (Read Thread Disclaimer)

[DoctorHurricane2003]

Thread disclaimer: It took me 20 minutes to type this and think philosophically about this subject, so you can imagine my dismay that somewhere in the middle of me doing this, the thread I was going to post it in was locked. It is safe to say no political comments are allowed in this thread, that is, comments about one or more political parties or opposition. What this thread is about is religious discussion (do NOT attack others), the science behind our U.S. constitution as to what is allowed and what is not allowed, and how our country as a whole is evolving on these viewpoints. Attacking one another's thoughts are strictly prohibited and yes it IS possible to have a civil discussion for these matters. If you personally believe you think you will make a comment that will come off as angry/bashing it is best not to continue to read this thread and to just ignore it. This is for philosophical/scientific discussion only. Mods, I'm trying not to get this thread deleted as it is an important discussion in our country, but if you wish to delete it, at least give it a chance to see where it goes first. My comments on here start off a little angry sounding, but actually go into a thoughtful discussion.



Continuing On With Original Post:

Ok everyone calm down, and let me give my calm viewpoint before everyone freaks out some more and this thread is locked.

First of all, our government is secular whether anyone likes it or not. Separation of church and state is essential...do you want a minority getting in power and telling you what to believe? I didn't think so...and don't say it isn't possible. We have protestants, catholics, mormons, jews, atheists...you name it in government today. What people choose to believe or not to believe is their personal right so as long as it does not infringe on others' rights. Our public school system is part of this government, so it must choose to teach the most scientifically viable explanation for how life came to be on Earth. Scientific evidence currently shows that the Big Bang happened to form the universe and evolution happened on Earth to form life. That may change in the future, but most likely will not.

Secondly, I personally believe that God wants us to figure out how he made the universe and life. I am a scientist, so being analytical is part of my job. Since current scientific evidence shows the Big Bang occurred as well as evolution, my thoughts are that God caused the Big Bang to create the universe and evolution was his design in creating life. Why certain people cannot see that is beyond me, and why people take great offense that they evolved from bacteria to the point of fighting with others is just plain stupid. I see design in evolution, and I believe it was God's design to evolve Earthly life in that way. Open your minds, and don't be closed off to everything because not everything, especially this question, is black or white.

In terms of interjecting the God part into the public school system, yes ~70% of the country is Christian...however, just because 70% of the country is Christian does not mean we own everything. It is part of the constitution to protect the rights of ALL people, not just Christians, not just atheists. The key to it is finding a balance. In public school science classrooms, evolution is acceptable, creationism is not to protect the rights of others (required courses) as well as the fact that science classrooms are for ANALYTICAL discussion. If you want to teach about God in public schools, it is perfectly acceptable to put it in non-required philosophy or religious courses/electives where the student has a choice to take it or not. Generally it is my opinion that in Sunday School (if you believe in organized religion) is the medium to learning about creationism, as that is what it is there for, or if you do not believe in organized religion, you should learn it at home where, presumably, your parents teach you and you read your bible.


I am afraid that with this discussion in our nation right now, many people are just failing to sit down and really thinking about it and are just going all-out to make sure their beliefs are what is set in stone. This is NOT a good thing....freedom of religion, thought, and expression is what built this country. No one is preventing Christians from saying Merry Christmas, but at the same time, the Government cannot say it as it is outside of their realm to do so, and corporations have the right to tell what their employer can and cannot say.



Thank you.

[feederband]

Unlocked now..

[wxcrazytwo]

Bravo Doctor, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on the BIG BANG theory. I understand the theory as it relates to the making of the universe and so, but if you think deeply enough something must have made that "THING" that caused the BIG BANG in the first place. It is a theory that has been around for years this I know, but if you think about it, what made that ball of gas in the first place. Like I said in the other Bible thread, if you believe in God, then it only follows that you believe in extraterrestial beings. I am not atheist, but agnostic. Teaching about the existence of God, is good, because I would think we would all want to know, but not the bible, which was arbitrarily put together to suite ones belief. The Bible is good reading, but that is about it for me. I would want to go into the bible more theologically.

[feederband]

.


I see design in evolution, and I believe it was God's design to evolve Earthly life in that way. Open your minds, and don't be closed off to everything because not everything, especially this question, is black or white.



Thank you.

I don't agree with you...But I like this statement...I would believe in this before I would believe the Bible teachings...

[Derek Ortt]

I will disagree with the separation of church and state. That is NOT in the Constitution. Instead, what we have is that no law may be passed restricting religion. IMO, prohibiting prayer and religion in the public schools violates this first amendment protection

[DoctorHurricane2003]

I know feederband, it really figures lol

wxcrazy...yes that is what I was saying with regards to the Big Bang...I believe that God created the thing that exploded and caused the explosion as well.

In terms of the Bible, if there was a class called "The Philosophy of Christianity" or something similar, I could perfectly go along with using the Bible as a textbook considering that 1) Christians use the Bible as their holy book and 2) It only suits the class to see what the Christians believe.

If you do not believe the Bible, it is your choice and I completely respect it...but I do think personally that people should learn about the major religions that influence this country...if you don't want to, again, it is your choice.

For example, this summer I plan on taking a course about the Qu'ran and Islam just to learn more about what the Muslim world believes and why. It is very healthy to learn more about the world one lives in.

[feederband]

I will disagree with the separation of church and state. That is NOT in the Constitution. Instead, what we have is that no law may be passed restricting religion. IMO, prohibiting prayer and religion in the public schools violates this first amendment protection

Yes I have wondered the about the wording "Freedom of religion" It does not say Freedom from religion...hmmm

[feederband]

I know feederband, it really figures lol

wxcrazy...yes that is what I was saying with regards to the Big Bang...I believe that God created the thing that exploded and caused the explosion as well.

In terms of the Bible, if there was a class called "The Philosophy of Christianity" or something similar, I could perfectly go along with using the Bible as a textbook considering that 1) Christians use the Bible as their holy book and 2) It only suits the class to see what the Christians believe.

If you do not believe the Bible, it is your choice and I completely respect it...but I do think personally that people should learn about the major religions that influence this country...if you don't want to, again, it is your choice.

For example, this summer I plan on taking a course about the Qu'ran and Islam just to learn more about what the Muslim world believes and why. It is very healthy to learn more about the world one lives in.

Good luck in those courses...I believe it open your mind even more..

[wxcrazytwo]

I will disagree with the separation of church and state. That is NOT in the Constitution. Instead, what we have is that no law may be passed restricting religion. IMO, prohibiting prayer and religion in the public schools violates this first amendment protection

In the United States, separation of church and state is governed by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and by legal precedents, some quite controversial, interpreting that clause. Although the Establishment Clause states that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," the U.S. Supreme Court has long interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment (one of the Reconstruction Amendments) as making the Establishment Clause and other portions of the Bill of Rights binding on state and local governments as well. Many other democratic governments around the world have similar clauses in their respective constitutions.

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[DoctorHurricane2003]

Derek: I did not say, however, that the separation of church and state was in the constitution.

I do believe it is essential though for protecting the right to believe or not to believe in religion x. I think of separation of church and state as a vehicle to ensuring that fairness and equality insues.

Prohibiting prayer in public schools is a vague description. If one person or an optional, extracurricular club of students wants to pray to God/Yahweh/Allah/Vishnu/FSM, it is their choice and they have the right to do that, and in general across this country, students have the said right. However, prohibiting forced/mandatory prayer is absolutely necessary to ensure the protection of what you, I, or anyone else believes or doesn't believe. Also remember that teachers and prinicipals are workers of the state, so they cannot lead a prayer like that either, but they can take part individually or in the extracurricular clubs with students as it is their choice to be a sponsor of the said club.


Edit: church AND state, not church IN state

[x-y-no]

I will disagree with the separation of church and state. That is NOT in the Constitution. Instead, what we have is that no law may be passed restricting religion. IMO, prohibiting prayer and religion in the public schools violates this first amendment protection

So is it only Christianity that the government may teach (and which particular variety may they teach)? Or would you support the government mandating a class teaching Islam? How about Satanic worship? If not, why not?

[x-y-no]

Derek: I did not say, however, that the separation of church and state was in the constitution.

I do believe it is essential though for protecting the right to believe or not to believe in religion x. I think of separation of church and state as a vehicle to ensuring that fairness and equality insues.

Prohibiting prayer in public schools is a vague description. If one person or an optional, extracurricular club of students wants to pray to God/Yahweh/Allah/Vishnu/FSM, it is their choice and they have the right to do that, and in general across this country, students have the said right. However, prohibiting forced/mandatory prayer is absolutely necessary to ensure the protection of what you, I, or anyone else believes or doesn't believe. Also remember that teachers and prinicipals are workers of the state, so they cannot lead a prayer like that either, but they can take part individually or in the extracurricular clubs with students as it is their choice to be a sponsor of the said club.


Edit: church AND state, not church IN state

Very well put.

[wxcrazytwo]

look, Christianity in public schools is plain and simply wrong.

[gtalum]

I understand the theory as it relates to the making of the universe and so, but if you think deeply enough something must have made that "THING" that caused the BIG BANG in the first place.

This is where quantum physics becomes really hairy. As science advances, evidence of the conditions of the universe slowly become clear closer and closer to the exact moment of the Big Bang. Our current model of physics has supported everythign that happened from within a few thousandths of a second after the Big Bang. The fact that we don't really understand what was tehre to cause the Big Bang or where all the matter wa sbefor eteh Big Bang does not disprove the Big Bang. It merely illustrates our ignorance of the universe outside of our perceived 4 dimensions. Being 4 dimensional creatures by dfeinition makes it very difficult, currently even impossible, to really understand the universe and it's postulated 11 or more dimensions.

I recommend reading A Brief history of Time and The Universe in a Nutshell by STephen Hawking to get a better understanding of the current state of quantum physics and Big Bang theory. Once you get your brain twisted and knotted like a limp spaghetti noodle by these books, you'll need a good break.

[Skywatch_NC]

But if a public school in TX wants to try this elective Bible class who the heck are we to stop them??

[gtalum]

If I was religious, I would be extremely wary of allowing the government to control my religion. Simply stated, letting religion into government makes it easier for government to get into religion. Both should be kept as far away form each other as possible.

That said, I don't consider it a major issue to allow religious studies into public school classes as electives.

[Cookiely]

My thoughts are if they are going to teach the big bang theory then they ought to include creationism also. I believe that a moment of silence and a sharing of the word of God should never have been removed from schools. When I went to school (in the dark ages) we took turns reading from whatever religious book we each chose to bring. In this way we also learned about other religions and respect for those religions. If someone was agnostic or atheist they could share their thoughts or read from a novel or simply tell a joke.

[wxcrazytwo]

But if a public school in TX wants to try this elective Bible class who the heck are we to stop them??

THE CONSTITUTION.

[Skywatch_NC]

But if a public school in TX wants to try this elective Bible class who the heck are we to stop them??

THE CONSTITUTION.

Nothing says students HAVE TO take this class.

[gtalum]

My thoughts are if they are going to teach the big bang theory then they ought to include creationism also.

One is scientific theory and the other is religious dogma (note: "dogma" is not a bad word, nor is it meant to belittle beliefs). The two are completely different. Scientific theories can be modified as new information is gathered to improve them. Religious dogma is set in stone, and cannot be observed or challenged as scientific theory can.