Met Dr. Steve Lyons: his thoughts on Katrina, etc.

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jazzfan1247
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Met Dr. Steve Lyons: his thoughts on Katrina, etc.

#1 Postby jazzfan1247 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:08 am

I had the wonderful opportunity to meet and talk with Dr. Steve Lyons during the past couple days. I’m assuming he’d be ok with me sharing his thoughts with you folks, since he seemed pretty open with his thoughts…

Regarding Katrina, he is convinced Katrina was a Cat 4 at landfall at least in LA, and from the way he worded it, he probably meant MS as well. He said he can’t bring himself to believe that a 920 mb pressure would correspond to a Cat 3 intensity, since it is so far removed from the typical pressure/wind relationship. He believes the large size of the hurricane cannot fully explain this. He also believes that recon did NOT sample to top sustained winds in the cane, and overall he seemed very suspicious of the way NHC reduces flight-level winds to the surface. About Katrina’s storm surge, he thinks the large wind field cannot account for all of the storm surge height (although interestingly enough he did stress the importance of wind field size in storm surge at another time).

Another interesting thing he mentioned was about the upgrade of Andrew to Cat 5 status. He didn’t necessarily *criticize* the decision necessarily, but he seemed to think that the decision to upgrade solely based on a 90% reduction factor from the 162 kt flight-level wind was not enough justification. He views the lack of sufficient surface data as a big problem in determining hurricane intensities accurately…he pointed out the Cindy example, where it was upgraded solely based on flight-level and radar velocity data and not dropsondes. Interestingly enough, he mentioned that there are some mets (at the NHC?) who do NOT agree with Andrew’s upgrade, and mentioned one particular colleague who is VERY adamant about that…mentioned something about “taking it to the grave” or something lol.

Personally I disagree with his views, but I’ll let you guys comment on this.

Other things I remember:

-He thinks the NHC live and die by the models too much sometimes. The Ivan example was brought up, when the GFS (and the tropical models run off that) continually depicted it turning north way too early. Someone else brought up that the GFS had been underestimating the subtropical ridge before Ivan for the week before or so, and Dr. Lyons couldn’t understand why NHC would still go with the GFS in this case.

-Although overall forecast skill has improved, the skill for forecast the LANDFALL location within 24-36 hours has NOT improved at all in the past couple decades. This was pretty surprising to me. Ditto for intensity forecasting.

-He has been very successful in the past couple of years at anticipating rapid intensification cycles using a sort of flow-chart containing certain conditions. I wish I remembered to ask more about this, but the couple things I remember were an excellent outflow presentation and the presence of those outflow “spokes” that appear in the CDO, that indicate massive evacuation of the air in the upper levels.

-He believes coastal areas are over-evacuated. He says the only areas that should really be evacuated are storm-surge prone areas, and low-lying areas from freshwater flooding. Everyone else should basically stay and hunker down, because wind rarely kills anyone.

Anyways, it was a great experience meeting him, even if I do disagree with him. You can just feel his passion for what he does; he said he could talk about hurricanes and the like for hours and hours on end. It was really awesome just to meet someone who is so passionate about what they do.

Fire away with your thoughts… 8-)
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#2 Postby wxmann_91 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:18 am

-He believes coastal areas are over-evacuated. He says the only areas that should really be evacuated are storm-surge prone areas, and low-lying areas from freshwater flooding. Everyone else should basically stay and hunker down, because wind rarely kills anyone.


Not true. Tornadoes kill on average 70 people a year. If you live in a mobile home or trailor you definitely should consider going to a safer shelter for even a Cat 1 or 2.
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#3 Postby jazzfan1247 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:33 am

He didn't include tornadoes in the category of "winds". Now that you mention it, he definitely includes mobile homes and trailers in the "evacuate" category because obviously those "structures" aren't exactly wind-proof.
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#4 Postby Stormcenter » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:19 am

If you actually did speak with him and he made those comments then
I have no gripe with them at all. He knows way more than most of us on this board so who are we to disagree with "his" opinions.
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#5 Postby skysummit » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:26 am

I fully agree with most of his comments. Where exactly did you get the pleasure to meet Dr. Lyons?
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#6 Postby wxman57 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:43 am

I would disagree with his point about Katrina's pressure supporting higher winds. I don't think he's taking into consideration the pressure gradient. Katrina's core was 2-3 times larger than the average hurricane, so the pressure gradient from eye to outside the core of stronger winds was reduced. True, a NORMAL-sized hurricane with 920mb pressure would almost certainly be a strong Cat 4, but not when that pressure change is spread out over a much larger area/
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#7 Postby Ixolib » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:27 am

Man-O-Man... I can only imagine the discussion this thread's gonna generate!!! :eek:
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Derek Ortt

#8 Postby Derek Ortt » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:42 am

I would also disagree with Dr Lyons regarding the pressure/wind relation. The northern GOM does not have the usual pressure to wind. Ivan (which I fully believe to have been a category 2 with 95KT wind based upon SFMR) had a pressure of 946mb at landfall, and it was smaller than Rita, which SFMR also states was a category 2 and had a pressure of 937mb at landfall. So a larger hurricane with a pressure of 920mb very well could have the 105-110KT winds indicated by NHC
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#9 Postby f5 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:47 am

Derek Ortt wrote:I would also disagree with Dr Lyons regarding the pressure/wind relation. The northern GOM does not have the usual pressure to wind. Ivan (which I fully believe to have been a category 2 with 95KT wind based upon SFMR) had a pressure of 946mb at landfall, and it was smaller than Rita, which SFMR also states was a category 2 and had a pressure of 937mb at landfall. So a larger hurricane with a pressure of 920mb very well could have the 105-110KT winds indicated by NHC


you also mention Katrina&Rita should be treated like a WPAC typhoon beacuse of their size compared to an average hurricane.NHC said in their report they did find 130-140 knot winds at flight level they go on to say beacuse the dry air was impacting how the thunderstorms around the eyewall was weakening they weren't able to transport those strong winds down to the surface
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#10 Postby Derek Ortt » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:28 am

even so in Katrina, 920mb usually means more than 120KT, which is what the 90% rule yields
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#11 Postby boca » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:41 am

Where did you meet Dr. Steve Lyons?
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Jim Cantore

#12 Postby Jim Cantore » Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:23 pm

skysummit wrote:I fully agree with most of his comments. Where exactly did you get the pleasure to meet Dr. Lyons?


ditto
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#13 Postby jazzfan1247 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:51 pm

I'm a freshman at Cornell University, and he came to give a couple talks and visit the met department, etc. He also talked about some issues concerning coastal erosion and land subsidence due to oil extraction.
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#14 Postby Steve » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:54 pm

>>He thinks the NHC live and die by the models too much sometimes. The Ivan example was brought up, when the GFS (and the tropical models run off that) continually depicted it turning north way too early. Someone else brought up that the GFS had been underestimating the subtropical ridge before Ivan for the week before or so, and Dr. Lyons couldn’t understand why NHC would still go with the GFS in this case.

That's interesting since it's pretty much what TWC does with their forecasts as well as rarely bucking the NHC's forecasts. Maybe he knows better, but just sticks to what he's told to do. :?:

Steve
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#15 Postby jazzfan1247 » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:55 pm

Stormcenter wrote:If you actually did speak with him and he made those comments then
I have no gripe with them at all. He knows way more than most of us on this board so who are we to disagree with "his" opinions.


Incidentally, one of my fellow met students here made the exact same argument, saying he has to agree because Dr. Steve is an expert. But then I asked "Well, what about the people who wrote up the report then?"
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jax

#16 Postby jax » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:58 pm

I agree... Andrew wasn't a cat 5...
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#17 Postby vbhoutex » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:35 pm

I think it would be very interesting to get several of the weather experts we see and/or hear about like Dr. Lyons, Dr. Avila, Stewart, etc. together and have a real discusssion where they could/would truly express their feelings concerning the model hugging etc.
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#18 Postby ROCK » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:57 pm

Steve wrote:>>He thinks the NHC live and die by the models too much sometimes. The Ivan example was brought up, when the GFS (and the tropical models run off that) continually depicted it turning north way too early. Someone else brought up that the GFS had been underestimating the subtropical ridge before Ivan for the week before or so, and Dr. Lyons couldn’t understand why NHC would still go with the GFS in this case.

That's interesting since it's pretty much what TWC does with their forecasts as well as rarely bucking the NHC's forecasts. Maybe he knows better, but just sticks to what he's told to do. :?:

Steve




agreed. TWC does the exact same thing. Never did like Lyons...
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Scorpion

#19 Postby Scorpion » Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 pm

Of course Andrew was a 5. Anyone who doubts it has to be crazy. Have you seen the radar images at landfall? Unbroken, perfectly symmetrical eyewall. Look at the damage photos. They speak for themselves.
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MiamiensisWx

#20 Postby MiamiensisWx » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:12 pm

Scorpion wrote:Of course Andrew was a 5. Anyone who doubts it has to be crazy. Have you seen the radar images at landfall? Unbroken, perfectly symmetrical eyewall. Look at the damage photos. They speak for themselves.


The eyewall was actually strengthening at landfall.
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