2005 Atlantic Tropical Cyclone Reports Discussion Thread

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SouthFloridawx
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#241 Postby SouthFloridawx » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:20 am

Rita - 185 mph/115 mph-very very agree. But could be 110 mph at landfall but I would go with keeping it 115 mph.


amazing stuff... 185 MPH

Still amazes me that a force such as clouds could produce such a thing.

Wilma - 190 mph/155 mph Cozumel/130 mph Cancun/135 mph Florida
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Derek Ortt

#242 Postby Derek Ortt » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:16 am

Below is just my opinion and is in no way official

Here is what I would have went with

Arlene - 70 mph/50 mph
Bret - 40 mph/40 mph
Cindy - 75 mph/75 mph
Dennis - 155 mph/140 mph Cuba1/145 Cuba 2/125 mph Florida
Emily - 155 mph/85 mph Grenada/Yuctan 130 mph/Mexico 115 mph
Franklin - 70 mph
Gert - 45 mph/45 mph
Harvey - 65 mph
Irene - 100 mph
Jose - 50 mph/50 mph
Katrina - 175 mph/75 mph Florida/120 mph Louisiana/115 mph Mississippi-and even this is being generous as no data supports these intensities
Lee - 40 mph
Maria - 115 mph
Nate - 90 mph
Ophelia - 90 mph
Philippe - 75 mph
Rita - 175 mph/105 mph if 4 aircraft cannot find cat 3 winds, I do not believe it should be called a 3
Stan - 85 mph/45 mph Yucatan/85 mph Veracruz
Tammy - 50 mph/50 mph
Vince - 80 mph/35 mph
Wilma - 180 mph/160 mph Cozumel/140 mph Cancun/125 mph Florida A Katrina seminar convinced me that the structural changes of Katrina also may have occurred in Wilma, preventing the normal 90% reduction here
Alpha - 50 mph/50 mph
Beta - 115 mph/100 mph
Gamma - 50 mph
Delta - 70 mph
Epsilon - 85 mph
Zeta - 65 mph
Last edited by Derek Ortt on Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#243 Postby f5 » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:45 am

Katrina destroyed platforms had Rita gone into Galveston bay the refernies would be crippled.espically in world where oil supplies are tight beacuse of China&India's booming economies.Also Iran's nuke program .the point i'm trying to make oil make the economy go round and wall street does not like 1 cent increases in oil prices
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#244 Postby f5 » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:51 am

Derek Ortt wrote:Below is just my opinion and is in no way official

Here is what I would have went with


Rita - 150 mph/105 mph if 4 aircraft cannot find cat 3 winds, I do not believe it should be called a 3


150 at 895 mb?
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#245 Postby Derek Ortt » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:59 pm

meant 175 mph, for some reason, I reverted back to KT, will change
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#246 Postby KWT » Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:12 pm

Personally these are what I think, probably not that different to Derek really:

Arlene - 70 mph/50 mph
Bret- 45mph/45mph
Cindy- 75mph/75mph
Dennis- 150 mph/140 mph Cuba1/140 Cuba 2/110 mph Florida
Emily- 160mph/85mph Grenada/125mph Yucatan/115mph Mexico
Franklin- 70mph
Gert - 45 mph/45 mph
Harvey - 65 mph
Irene - 100 mph
Jose - 50 mph/50 mph
Katrina - 175 mph/80 mph Florida/115 mph Louisiana/105 mph Mississippi
Lee - 40 mph
Maria - 115 mph
Nate - 90 mph
Ophelia - 90 mph
Philippe - 75 mph
Rita- 180 mph/110 mph
Stan - 85 mph/45 mph Yucatan/85 mph Veracruz
Tammy - 50 mph/50 mph
Vince - 80 mph/30 mph
Wilma - 185 mph/165 mph Cozumel/145 mph Cancun/125 mph Florida
Alpha - 50 mph/50 mph
Beta - 115 mph/100 mph
Gamma - 50 mph
Delta - 70 mph
Epsilon - 85 mph
Zeta - 65 mph


As I said, all what I personally feel!
I can't see how Rita can be justified as a major at landfall, so I went with 110 though 105mph sounds more probable.
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#247 Postby benny » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:51 pm

I'm not quite sure why everyone thinks Rita wasn't a Cat 3 at landfall. Has anyone seen the damage photos? Or what is left? Surge was responsible for a good portion of the damage but wind was significant as well. A little more respect for 937 mb and history is probably due here. Rita and Katrina are now the two Cat 3's with the lowest central pressure at landfall by far. On the left side of the storm a reliable tower had 82 kt gusting to 101 kt. That's just one location as well. Radar had 120 kt at landfall aloft, aircraft up to 115 kt. I can see how some might think 95 kt but I see no compelling evidence to drop it to Cat 2.
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#248 Postby WindRunner » Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:23 pm

benny wrote:I can see how some might think 95 kt but I see no compelling evidence to drop it to Cat 2.


Ummm . . . 95 kts is a Cat 2.
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#249 Postby Derek Ortt » Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:31 pm

Damage has no bearing on a storm's classification

no evidence suggested anything over 95KT, in fact, the obs suggested closer to 90KT
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#250 Postby benny » Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:07 pm

"IMO, in best track, if there is a debate regarding the wind speeds, one should always go with the lower value, so that next time residents know that if a 2 could do this, a real 3 will be many times worse. However, for the advisories, always go with the higher value so that nobody lets their guard down"

This is not an acceptable philosophy for science, IMO. The best track is about providing the best intensity for a given storm, not to give guidance to residents. Can we really even tell the difference between 95 and 100 kt anyway?

As far as Rita goes... on the LEFT side of the storm there was 82 kt sustained winds at a reliable tower. This observation was taken overland without marine exposure. It is certainly possible if not likely that on the RIGHT side of the storm (where typically the maximum is located) that the winds were higher, given any motion assymetry to the storm AND marine exposure considerations. As far as I know, we rarely if ever measure the maximum winds at the surface because the instruments are just too far apart. I would love to know what the max winds were in Cameron Parish at the coast because I don't think Port Arthur captures all of it. 105 kt may have been a little too high at the time but I don't see any compelling evidence that suggests it was a Cat 2. It is especially difficult given the ridiculously high storm surge near the coast of LA.
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#251 Postby Normandy » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:54 am

Why does everyone believe Wilma was a Cat5 when it struck Cozumel, I thought there was not data to suggest that?
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Derek Ortt

#252 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:04 am

This is not an acceptable philosophy for science, IMO. The best track is about providing the best intensity for a given storm, not to give guidance to residents. Can we really even tell the difference between 95 and 100 kt anyway?

So we automatically go with the higher value and bring about even more complacency? Or we go above what the data suggests?

4 aircraft did not find category 3 winds anywhere in the storm 12 hours before landfall. (There was an AF, 2 NOAA, and 1 Navy flying into Rita SIMULTANEOUSLY). Rita weakened further on the final approach. Cat 2 based upon the data, probably should have been assigned
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#253 Postby gatorcane » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:27 am

wow Derek, you mean you estimate Katrina had 120 mph winds in FL?Are these gusts because I was under the impression Katrina had 100 mph gust tops with 80 mph sustained but only in a small isolated area of Miami :eek:
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#254 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:37 am

I said Katrina had 120 m.p.h. winds in Louisiana, 75 mph in Florida
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#255 Postby gatorcane » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:27 am

thanks for the clarification 8-)
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#256 Postby Scorpion » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:40 am

My ideas:

Arlene - 70 mph max/50 mph
Bret - 40 mph max/40 mph
Cindy - 75 mph max/70 mph
Dennis - 150 mph max/135 mph Cuba/145 Cuba /115 mph Panhandle
Emily - 155 mph max/85 mph Grenada/Yucatan 115 mph/Mexico 115 mph
Franklin - 70 mph
Gert - 45 mph max/45 mph
Harvey - 65 mph
Irene - 105 mph
Jose - 50 mph max/50 mph
Katrina - 175 mph max/85 mph Florida/125 mph Louisiana/120 mph Mississippi
Lee - 40 mph
Maria - 115 mph
Nate - 90 mph
Ophelia - 85 mph
Philippe - 80 mph
Rita - 175 mph max/105 mph
Stan - 85 mph max/45 mph Yucatan/85 mph Veracruz
Tammy - 50 mph max/50 mph
Vince - 80 mph max/35 mph
Wilma - 185 mph max/160 mph Cozumel/145 mph Cancun/130 mph Florida
Alpha - 50 mph max/50 mph
Beta - 115 mph max/110 mph
Gamma - 50 mph
Delta - 75 mph
Epsilon - 85 mph
Zeta - 70 mph
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#257 Postby Dr. Jonah Rainwater » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:34 pm

Normandy wrote:Why does everyone believe Wilma was a Cat5 when it struck Cozumel, I thought there was not data to suggest that?


There's not. There's no data or damage to suggest that. Cozumel still exists after being directly hit by two Cat4s in one season because it has extremely stringent building codes, but if a Cat5 struck Cozumel...you'd know. There would be widespread structural damage, and many of the residents who rode out the storms (there were alot) would not have made it. Cancun was devastated, but not leveled.
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Derek Ortt

#258 Postby Derek Ortt » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:36 pm

There was a dropsonde of 137KT, now, that may have eben discounted, but if it ws deemed to be a gust and not representative of the sustained wind, Emily never should have been upgraded to a cat 5, since it has about the same level of evidence

and please, STOP USING DAMAGE TO DETERMINE A STORM'S CLASSIFICATION. WILMA WAS A HURRICANE, NOT A TORNADO
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#259 Postby HURAKAN » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:09 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:and please, STOP USING DAMAGE TO DETERMINE A STORM'S CLASSIFICATION. WILMA WAS A HURRICANE, NOT A TORNADO


Good point, I never expected a category 1 hurricane like Katrina was going to do as much damage as it did here in Miami-Dade.
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#260 Postby f5 » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:44 pm

Derek Ortt wrote:I said Katrina had 120 m.p.h. winds in Louisiana, 75 mph in Florida


that would be a new record 120 mph winds with such a low pressure(920 mb) acoording to NHC
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